Wintersun's Jari Mäenpää on Time II Problems

fantom

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I kinda feel that's the situation: Time II is finished but is being held captive by the label because Jari is full of shit since 2006

Highly more likely that Jari's ego or incompetence is holding the music captive, not Nuclear Blast. Jari is a talented musician, but he has shown to be inefficient at mixing and producing. Nuclear Blast stopped giving him advances because it didn't make financial sense. I am sure if there was a plan to actually finish the album that was realistic (aka, Jari had stems to send to a real studio for mixing), Nuclear Blast would make a smart business decision to capitalize on it.

You simply cannot wash the money and just spend it by yourself into something useless.
Such innocence. Given things like Rico Jr and Vik, I think it is obvious that people do. Ideally they would't just get away with it. At some point it is pursuing people in court or cutting losses. People keep dumping money on Wintersun just like they do with rogue luthiers.
 

Captain Shoggoth

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Wintersun S/O in the Daemoness thread reminds me of this thread, from which joy and laughter springs eternal. It is the silver lining to the abject disappointment I get from the band itself

Apropos of nothing, I actually really liked The Forest Seasons.

Anyway, I get how diva musicians get stuck in their own head and the project gets bigger and bigger etc but tbh Wintersun is pretty good but not exactly splitting the atom. There are other bands farting out hour+ of comparably complex/layered music without much issue. 18 years for three like 45 minute long albums is absurd.

If he got out of his own way, he could drop Time II or some other thing to buy more time (lawl) in a few weeks worth of work, and everyone will forget and throw money at him again.

Damn, I hated that album. I think I only listened to it the once, I felt like a chump for crowdfunding it. But I'm a shred wanker. S/T or death for me
 

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This thread seems to go back and forth between thinking the problem is money/the label, and others thinking it's Jari's ego.

I'm 100% in camp "ego". The music for Time has been inside Jari's computer since 2006-2008 (according to official statements from the Wintersun website that LONG predate the idea of splitting the album in two) so it IS written. We've mentioned many times in here that all the reasons Jari puts up are bullshit because there are solutions to his "ermahgerd layered tercks" (and yes I'm using old memes on purpose) that are free to use and run on standard computers etc. A major label like Nuclear Blast will never tell a signed band "plz don't enter studio, we don't want to have a record to sell" so there just is no money reason why Time II isn't out yet.

Jari disguises it as a money issue cause he's run out of other excuses (writer's blocks and whatnot) and HAS to blame something or someone else on his own shortcomings. That's an ego problem. It might be a full-on personality disorder at this point.
 

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I don't get the obsession over second part of Time, whatever it is or is it even completely written. According to Jari's update from may 2022 about future albums Time II is 90% done. So it must be really good when it comes out, right? Most anticipated album of melodic death metal ever? Jari's true vision in it's purest form? :shrug:

Another thing is "fans" who victimize themselves and make accusations about someones personality or ways to work. And after years still using same after thought arguments over and over. Like pointless and illogical whining would give some control on that. It doesn't just apply to present time, in reality situations and goals change all the time. How to blame someone else if you're the only one making the music. Money was definetly an issue before crowdfunding, but if there's two crowdfundings I don't see it like that anymore. Technical side of making music isn't an issue anymore. Neither creative side, if there's five albums in the making, which is pretty crazy.
 

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I don't get the obsession over second part of Time, whatever it is or is it even completely written. According to Jari's update from may 2022 about future albums Time II is 90% done. So it must be really good when it comes out, right? Most anticipated album of melodic death metal ever? Jari's true vision in it's purest form? :shrug:

Another thing is "fans" who victimize themselves and make accusations about someones personality or ways to work. And after years still using same after thought arguments over and over. Like pointless and illogical whining would give some control on that. It doesn't just apply to present time, in reality situations and goals change all the time. How to blame someone else if you're the only one making the music. Money was definetly an issue before crowdfunding, but if there's two crowdfundings I don't see it like that anymore. Technical side of making music isn't an issue anymore. Neither creative side, if there's five albums in the making, which is pretty crazy.
Money was only an issue because Jari couldn't work like hundreds of thousands of other musicians since the dawn of time. No one has ever complained about Nuclear Blast not providing the means to record albums. This is 100% Jaris doing and the fans paying him insane amounts of money so he can be an almost millionaire because he put out 3 albums is absolutely insane to me. Fools and their money are soon parted is such an apt representation of this entire situation.
 

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...Insane amounts of money that have completely disappeared, unless he proves otherwise.
5 years have passed and no studio, no construction, no new music, no real update besides "i am doing 4 albums at the same time in my bedroom", no new live dates, no band members apparently...
 

Sermo Lupi

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No one has ever complained about Nuclear Blast not providing the means to record albums. This is 100% Jaris doing and the fans paying him insane amounts of money so he can be an almost millionaire because he put out 3 albums is absolutely insane to me.

Not aiming this at Jari because his struggles are pretty clearly not label-related, but I wonder if that part about Nuclear Blast is actually true. Nuclear Blast has a lot of ex-artists and I do recall some bands complaining about support from them over the years. Nuclear Blast rose to prominence in the 90s and 2000s when music sales started to tank; one has to wonder if their move to sign various big-name acts in the 2000s and 2010s like Slayer, Exodus, Testament, etc. was a move to safeguard their position from declining album sales and whether any of the smaller acts on their roster suffered from that.

I doubt they'd duck their contractual obligations for recording. In all likelihood, neglected bands just didn't get as long to record and as good a studio as they wanted, plus less marketing and touring support than they wished for.
 

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I don't get the obsession over second part of Time, whatever it is or is it even completely written. According to Jari's update from may 2022 about future albums Time II is 90% done. So it must be really good when it comes out, right? Most anticipated album of melodic death metal ever? Jari's true vision in it's purest form? :shrug:

Another thing is "fans" who victimize themselves and make accusations about someones personality or ways to work. And after years still using same after thought arguments over and over. Like pointless and illogical whining would give some control on that. It doesn't just apply to present time, in reality situations and goals change all the time. How to blame someone else if you're the only one making the music. Money was definetly an issue before crowdfunding, but if there's two crowdfundings I don't see it like that anymore. Technical side of making music isn't an issue anymore. Neither creative side, if there's five albums in the making, which is pretty crazy.

I feel misrepresented in this reply.

My stance is: I think it's dishonest to the point of almost being criminal to have the music ready to be recorded and mixed and just deciding to not provide it, but to milk fans for money instead without delivering any meaningful product. Any other bands doing that? No. It's just him. If he doesn't release the music, then okay, but, don't ask for money then. He's essentially spent the best part of 20 years on fuckin' paid leave at this point, I'd say the people who sent him money definitely have a right to be pissed. Also, 90% done? Some of us have functioning long-term memory and he's been saying that for over a decade.

Your second paragraph definitely makes you sound like you've lost the plot. Noone is victimizing themselves, noone is trying to have control over anything, like, seriously, what are you even talking about? You don't seem to realize that the dude is a professional musician who doesn't produce any music. He pretends to all day, all year, all decade, but he never delivers. If you're gullible enough to think there's 5 albums in the making just because he said so, that's good for you, but the rest of us live in the real world. Where as much as you can consider him to be a great songwriter, he just doesn't write any songs.

I for myself don't care anymore if/when he releases it. When he does, I'll listen to it, maybe I'll even like it. Wouldn't be the first time I like music by someone who's full of shit (I like black metal), but, I have the right to call him out on being a dick to his fans. Which he 100% is. He's lucky to have fans this willing to lose their money, I don't know how he does it.
 

fantom

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Not aiming this at Jari because his struggles are pretty clearly not label-related, but I wonder if that part about Nuclear Blast is actually true. Nuclear Blast has a lot of ex-artists and I do recall some bands complaining about support from them over the years.

Nuclear blast made a public statement about it. Paraphrased, they said something like "compromises need to be made to make an album feasible".

The point here... How is it that hundreds of other bands are able to release material with similar level of complexity on the same label?
 

Sermo Lupi

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Nuclear blast made a public statement about it. Paraphrased, they said something like "compromises need to be made to make an album feasible".

The point here... How is it that hundreds of other bands are able to release material with similar level of complexity on the same label?

You seem to have taken that out of context. Judging from the statement itself, it seems that Jari threw Nuclear Blast under the bus by blaming them for not supporting his vision for the album and Wintersun fans started harassing Nuclear Blast about it.

Nuclear Blast's response was rather mild, opening with two paragraphs of praise for the fans, before commenting that "the business side of music can often be rough, and especially with a project as extensive as the TIME series, compromises have to be found to make an album both beautiful and feasible to all parties involved", declining further details.

Nuclear Blast's claim that they'd be "working together with Jari and his management to find the optimal solution for his concerns" is as good a confirmation you're ever going to get that they found his recording requests asinine and would not support them--probably for good reason.

That isn't proof Nuclear Blast hasn't rowed with other artists over album production. In fact, I'd bet it happens quite a lot. It's just that there never would've been a public statement if Jari hadn't moaned about it and beckoned his flying monkeys.

For the record, high-budget requests like recording live orchestras are regularly denied by labels. That isn't unique to Jari. He just seems to be one of the few to air his grievances with his label on social media.
 

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Anybody who has ever been a "boss" in charge of other people knows somebody like this IMO. Some people just cannot deliver something or complete a task, no matter what you do.

They might be clever and theoretically capable people. You can support them, incentivise them, pressure them, punish them - basically the full gamut of "carrot" or "stick" - and they will still fail to deliver. Some people are their own worst enemies. In my observation, it comes from any of the following:

1. Lacking confidence and being insecure, full of self doubt. Basically you're scared to complete a project. Either you think it's not good enough, or it's been such a part of your life that you don't know what you'll do when it's gone.
2. Way too much ego. I'm a genius. Other people can't possibly understand what I'm going through. Other people don't deserve me. etc
3. Zero organisation skills. Things are lost, missing and constantly going wrong. (This is the most common group IME)
4. Perfectionists who can't stop and say "enough is enough", then deliver the project
5. Bullshit artists. Promise the world for a paycheck but have no ability or intention of actually delivering.

I'm going to guess that Jari is a mix of 3 and 5, but he likes to use excuse number 4. At this point he knows it's a joke about him never releasing the albums, but he continues to ask dedicated fans for support. That's behaviour exactly in line with scam artists - especially when you keep people waiting with "I have four albums 90% done" and that sort of thing.

The facts seem to speak to him being totally disorganised. Having 1,000 fucking instrumental tracks or whatever isn't *that* hard with some basic project management. As others said, plenty of bands have made complex music. And Jari evidently has had plenty of money for a beefed up computer, storage space, or to just pay somebody who does know what they're doing. The fact he hasn't simply paid somebody to mix the material also means he has condition number 2 - where his ego is so massive that only HE is able to solve this problem.
 

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Forget Time 123 etc - Forest Seasons kicks a** and the people involved have serious musical capabilities to produce good music beyond time.
 

TedEH

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Dead, as the kids would say. Amazing.

So it must be really good when it comes out, right? Most anticipated album of melodic death metal ever? Jari's true vision in it's purest form?
I dunno how else to tell you this, but delays usually mean a drop in quality, not the other way around. In almost any industry, when a product takes significantly more than a reasonable amount of time to produce, that's typically a sign the project has been mismanaged or just failed entirely in it's goals.
 

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If Nuclear Blast are involved, then it wouldn't be a simple matter of just releasing the music. Nuclear Blast would have rights in relation to the music and they would want to ensure their rights aren't prejudiced, and I doubt Jari would want to leave himself open to a big claim against him.

So it'll probably be stuck in development hell forever until one side gives up. If he wanted to release it, he would, but he can't because his ego won't let him compromise with Nuclear Blast and Nuclear Blast aren't just going to give up on their investment.

That's my speculation, at least.
 


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