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Discussion in 'General Music Discussion' started by jvms, Jul 31, 2014.
I'm not associated with the band in any other way than as a listener of their music.
YoU dOn'T kNoW tHaT 'cAuSe YoU'rE nOt SiTtInG bEhInD hIm
Other albums counts The Forest Seasons. Released in 2017, or are your memories that short. Update about three other album concepts being under work is really about as old as that too.
I could have sworn you yourself said something along those lines, but I'm too lazy to go back and ready 50 pages of this thread to verify it.
Given that Wintersun plays within the same 12-tone scale that most western music does, there's zero way that all 9000 tracks he uses are unique notes and melodies. That's not how music works.
Shit man, I never knew using different notes required more computing power.
And here we are with our 1s and 0s.
No wonder we cannot comprehend why Jari's Mac Pro can't handle his music!
Nightwishs second album, Oceanborn, was released in 1998 and still sounds better than The Forest Seasons production wise, despite Tuomas admitting he had no idea about what he was doing and ended up with 20 violin tracks on one song. I wonder what Tuomas did differently compared to Jari? Took in outside help for things he knew he couldn't handle himself.
Great album, but objectively from todays standpoint lots of orchestrated sounds from it sound pretty cheap. But it doesn't make music any worse because times were different. You can hear there is not that much tracks and most of it is just individual synth tracks. Track count in The Forest seasons is around 100+ instead of over filled Time I's 200 tracks.
WHY does he need more than 200 tracks though? I must admit I’d never really heard of these guys but checked out this “epic” music earlier today and... I don’t really get the fuss. It’s all a bit emperors new clothes - Jari has obviously never heard the phrase “less is more” that’s for sure. All the stuff I heard earlier sounds like mush to me but what do I know.
He doesn't. So many unnecessary layers that are just there to be there.
Wow, such a surprise that you completely disregarded the point, which was
My question was, how do you exactly know that? Me saying "I just read what Jari wrote" is not an argument for you, so I'm not gonna give you a pass on this one either.
Also, been working so had no time to respond, but not gonna act like you and just ignore the questions given to me, so:
Just the first sentence already is bs. Granted, you need to be a stable name to do tours without new music and gather an audience. But still: your point was? If you need money and touring to make a record, we wouldn't have any music in this world we live in. Making music costs you absolutely _nothing_. Also saying that "making somebody more skilled than you work over your music is a lie" is a fucking laughable statement. The fuck, dude? Recording at home hasn't been around for that long.
And how come music is the only thing relating them? You asked for epic music that is hard on the computer. Are you saying that the music Hans Zimmer does doesn't count as such?
Others, who already know the genre better than I do (before you have a take on this, yes, I can comment about this. I've never said anything about the music - I've only criticized how Jari handles stuff outside music. And if he'd actually be honest about it, I'd have no problem. So far it hasn't been the case.) , have already listed bands so not gonna comment on this. But don't you yourself find it hilarious that you're asking for as-epic-as-wintersun-bands from us in the way like there couldn't be one, and when asked, you can come up with multiple bands that you yourself approve as such?
Since you seem to be such an expert on epic production, what exactly makes them sound objectively cheap? I don't really like the mix Wintersun has so... I mean, it's not bad, but it's not ground breaking on any level.. So how come my opinion is a subjective matter and yours is objective?
200 tracks and not a note worth recording.
I feel I could waste 3 hours writing a long ass post about this whole Wintersun farce, but summed up:
-Jari seeks absolute perfection
-Absolute perfection doesn't exist
-The band has a lot of enthusiastic fans, on the borderline of a religion
-Jari gets a lot of praise daily from the fans
-Jari has many times lost almost all objectivity when it comes to production. Time 1 was one of the most horrible mixes I've ever heard. Forest Seasons was great though.
-He's a total control freak - which isn't a bad thing. Many great creators share this trait.
-He's high up on himself. Might be a slight personality disorder, too. He wants adoration and supremacy. Just read the Wintersun posts - it's always about me me me, and blaming the external circumistances (blaming Nuclear Blast, lack of CPU power or any other lack of means to achieve something). He really does play the victim game. It's easy to just be a victim when you can't face the reality and make compromises, and admit that you need help with something.
If Jari were to take his head out from his ass, and have a reality check, he'd realize that one won't make great music with 2000 tracks. And basically no one's rig can handle even 200 tracks all with 10 different plugins on all of them. Just load up 30 instances of Omnisphere and you're already tickling the limits. If you drown your computer in CPU intensive hell, it's 100% on you. If you think you're that one special snowflake, that genius that just gets production and music on a level that is incomprehensible to the rest of us mortals, then BOUNCE THE FUCKING TRACKS TO AUDIO. Render those 100 intensive effects tracks to 1 uncompressed audio file. BOOM - 100 tracks gone. If you still feel like making excuses, just go listen to Nolly's latest work. There went your excuses. There are definitely many very normal people topping you on the production side, and they don't store their farts in a jar, film videos in their underwear and believe their own excuses. They know that art is about making compromises and capturing a moment in Time (pun intended) and the more you try to polish everything to absolute perfection, the less you get done and ultimately, the vision gets lost.
Jari did a perfect album once with Wintersun 1. I just hope someone would force him in a room for a month with the likes of Nolly and some other proper dudes, and he'd probably churn out a couple more.
He can add 1000 tracks if he wants. He's a decent singer, but nowhere near what could be described as epic. Thus no matter what he does, he will always be held back by the physical limitations he has.
He should stick to guitar, because he's a awesome player. But his vocals are nowhere near the level of the top tier vocalists.
So here you are moving a burden of proof for me, which is not my responsibility. It's just something that I've read during recent years. If you want to search it further, then do it by yourself and make your hopefully better conclusions in your own mind.
Making music costs equipment and time used in it. It varies how much, simple as that.
I listed some bands before which are equally "epic" in my opinion. But in the beginning this demand came from totally somewhere else with comparisons, band references and all that stuff for some reason.
Time I's mix is fine, little bit too packed to the max, nothing worse than that. He's not searching for perfection and knows that it doesn't exist.
Personality disorder? It's a one man project with a live band around. Of course it's about him writing music. Time I was more about everyone contributing with playing their parts at least.
Why you can do that but I can't?
Yeah, because a regular person with little to no money wouldn't be able to make music... Oh wait, there's this thing called the blues, just to name one.
How do you know? You're not sitting there looking over his shoulder.
I'm here listening to best possible quality .wav files and reading his finnish interviews.
And what makes you such an expert on a "good mix"? "I like it so it's objectively the best!"
It can be about so many things and depends on a context. I'm not a professional sound engineer but still have ears for tone and working on my own music for example. But maybe it doesn't really belong here as a subject. Make comparisons, use your ears, it's not that hard to know what's happening there. Arranging all that on the other hand is difficult. I've been listening heavier music around 17-18 years, which isn't that much but it gives some standpoint. It's all subjective, even pro's make shitty mixes in terms of metal music these days.
Gonna repeat this one.
Also, people listen to music from the 60s for years and years and claim that the way production is done nowadays is shit. What makes them more wrong than you? They have even more that experience you claim to have, yet I can guarantee you that most of them would say that Wintersun sounds just the same as every other band today. You were also talking about objectively good, and hard on computer mix. I gave you Hans Zimmer as an example but you disregarded him by saying "So here you are moving a burden of proof for me, which is not my responsibility."
I'm also starting to think you're just trolling.