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Discussion in 'General Music Discussion' started by jvms, Jul 31, 2014.
You drank the kool-aid a bit there, didn't ya bud?
Metropolis is defnitely Jari himself.
Hah, no. I'm like 13 years younger than he is. Just a fan since the first album.
Somebody needs to slap Jari's cock out of your mouth
That's not very nice from you...
You just must like...
people like jari make me wish there actually is a vengeful god
That's really harsh statement without knowing him personally. What kind of person is he really, I don't know. He's just a musician.
yes, because you need to know a grifter personally to know for sure they're a grifter.
You mean a "hobby musician".
I don't have a problem with a band taking 10-20 years to release material if they do music as a hobby. But why make public drama and excuses all the time? Because he is trying to make music production his profession, and he sucks at it as a professional. Just think of paying a civil engineer for plans, and they take 15 years and $500k just to tell you they need to build a new studio and system to render the plans. It makes no sense.
For comparison, Brymir formed as a tribute band and wanted to fill the gap left by Wintersun before Time I was released. They now have 3 excellent full length albums with over 30 songs in less than 10 years. They didn't ask me for a dime. Wintersun has released about 7 songs in 15 years and has the balls to ask me to "donate"?
I don't think it matters what artistic process Jari has, if he is going to ask fans to give them money so he can be a professional producer focusing on a single band that barely made any music in 15 years, I'll say what I want, because I didn't start that dialog. Fans have every right to respond with criticism. He wants us to believe we are in some alternate reality where Wintersun is a high tier quality band. News flash, they aren't. Ensiferum has released like 5 or 6 albums since kicking him out. That is nearly releasing a full album for each song Wintersun released since 2004.
TL;DR Jari treats Wintersun like a hobby at best when similar musicians are more productive and not asking for anything. If he wants to solicit people to pay him, then he should be judged for his behavior and lack of product. In any other industry, he would have been fired or bankrupt long ago.
It depends. Outboard gear isn't cheap. Plugins aren't cheap. If he is going all out on getting sound, he could spend 10k plus on ad converters. Another 5-10k on orchestra VSTs. 10k on mics. A decent amount on clean power and sound proofing. If just prepping an empty room with gear, it could easily be 50k to get studio tier gear, including all digital. And don't forget a handful of themed Daemoness guitars were essentials.
I remember this tour and thought it was going well, definitely didn't understand why Arsis was struggling. This explains a lot. What the hell.
And I think the other band was Starkill.
Their last North-American tour was in 2018, it's not a hobby thing to do that with biggest metal record label in world. And I don't like to measure bands with how much material they have released. Making creative art is now same thing as making plans for a house?
Brymir isn't even a tribute band, and they sounded like old Ensiferum in their first demo songs. They are not filling any gaps here. Actually Brymir is the real hobby band here, if we look at things. Don't want to bash them in anyway, because I like them very much too. Again no one has asked to "donate", they sold a product, simple as that. Why can't you stretch that to 15 and a half or so years, and say that Wintersun released three great albums with 17 songs? I can do that for you...
Claiming that Wintesun isn't a high tier band is a wast underestimation, and they didn't kick Jari out from Ensiferum. Jari wanted to focus on Wintersun at the time when Ensiferum was booking their first European tour and he decided to leave because of that.
But because these criticizing fans know better how his creative process works, and they know everything about how other bands work by making pointless comparisons based on them. These people even seem to know where all the crowdfunding money went and how financial matters are handled in Wintersun, so why Jari can't already release those goddamn five albums he has written already?
How should anyone know, I'm just patiently waiting that some day it (Time II) happens.
This is the problem. If Wintersun doesn't release them, everything you say doesn't change that they released 7 songs in 15 years. We've been hearing the "songs are written" preaching since 2006 and he still hasn't released the whole album. If Brymir is the real hobby band, how are they outpacing the professional band by 5x?
The official statement that Jari wrote:
"... The guys thought they wouldn't wait for me and they had to go on this tour, even without me. So they decided to try to find a replacement and kick me out of the band..."
He picked Wintersun. The band said keeping him in the band with Wintersun as a priority "would lead to the boredom and eventual break-up in the band.*
Where is that from? Oh, found it. This is the whole section. https://www.blabbermouth.net/news/ensiferum-part-ways-with-frontman-seek-replacement/
"So the rest of the guys and me had to make some difficult choices. The guys thought they wouldn't wait for me and they had to go on this tour, even without me. So they decided to try to find a replacement and kick me out of the band. I can understand their decision and I hold no grudge. I'm just sad that things had to go this way. I would have chosen both ENSIFERUM and my music, but since that wasn't possible, my choice was clear."
I didn't remember this whole thing from word to word, but I found couple of old interviews with similar phrasing. Jari is still in good relations with Ensiferum guys though, no matter what happened back then. Was it like "kicked" literally or did he just chose Wintersun, or maybe both is bit unclear to me. Seems it was both.
I just still don't understand the hate. Very little has been released. But for those who crowdfunded The Forest Seasons, we got exactly what we were promised. I'd certainly want a bit more for Patreon, but I haven't supported anyone for Patreon yet. It's pretty clear what you get for your money.
It's like people think they already own and are entitled to Time II. It doesn't exist and you haven't paid for it. There's nothing to get upset about. If you want to support a band with the rewards on Patreon, do - if not, don't. I'm a massive Wintersun fan, but I find it difficult to give a shit unless I can get a concrete product like The Forest Seasons, so I just check in now and again. Yeah, Jari rubs people the wrong way and their productivity is minimal compared to other bands. But I don't see where people have been scammed. I've gotten exactly what I bargained for.
If anyone has given money and not gotten what they were promised, I'd... well, I wouldn't love to hear it, as that would be very sad. But you'd think something against them would exist if it wasn't just a personality and productivity issue. All it seems to be is toxic Facebook drama.
I don't feel like anyone here feels that the album is owed to them so much as any sort of output at all after the money they've raked in. There are certainly people like that, but for the most part people are mad that the guy continuously pulls this "Well factor _____ is preventing Time 2 from being released" and then when said factor is fulfilled nothing comes of it. That's the big issue everyone has and why people call him for what he appears to be; greedy, and unprofessional.
Then it's not that you're not looking hard enough, it's that you're not looking at all. Read the part where he's scammed other bands via tours, his label by not releasing material (not just Time 2, literally anything), and his fans by somehow receiving half a million dollars from a crowdfunding campaign back in 2017 and still having no studio or album progress to show for it. In good news though, Jari got some nice new Daemoness guitars though right?
Welp, prepare to not love to read this reply.
But just to be safe, let's go and back this with the bands own words.
From their own Indiegogo page.
And yet, here we are in 2020, making compromises for a band that just received the buyout they were requesting.
But wait, let's go deeper, just so we're clear so you can "see where people have been scammed". We all know that they raised $500k, but how much exactly is this studio going to cost?
So, let's look at their initial goal of 3000 funders. Whoa, look, it's a safe goal for the album release! And it was met! Yay!
Next we have the 5000 funders goal. Oh goodness, it was met within 9 days! They actually raised the 250.000€ super quickly! This sounds like our good old buddies in Wintersun are going to get their HQ!
So with this amount of money ($524,328 or €464,438) the property should be purchased and construction of the studio should have begun. Nice! Considering how much Jari loves to show off everything that he ever does, including changing pickups, going to singing only, and getting new guitars, I'm sure I can find a youtube video or blog post about the construction of the building starting or at least the property being purchased and how good of news that is for Wintersun fans, am I right?
Oh wow, google search results found nothing on the matter other than returning me to their Indiegogo page. Well that's unfortunate.
Well, maybe the place is just a lot of money and I don't fully understand what goes into building a studio? What exactly are we looking at here?
According to Google, a tried and true source, single family homes go for around €250,000 to €500,000 (or $280,000 to $560,000). Not too shabby. However, larger, more luxurious homes are around €750,000 or upwards of €1,000,000 ($840,000 - $1,000,000+). So it seems housing in Finland is generally about the same as our housing is in the USA, in most high population areas. Just so we're clear though, housing prices are generally calculated by total square footage.
Now, if we're still going to try to make the argument of a studio and a home being drastically different things, we can go that route as well. Seems fair enough. So what does it cost to build a studio then? Now, according to my tried and true, ever reliable source, Google, a professional studio typically starts at around $40,000 and can ramp up into the millions for extremely luxurious studios. In case this needs to be noted, these high end studios are those owned by multi-million dollar producers and things of that sort. Think Kanye West. Now think Jari. These two things are not the same. Jari is not Kanye and Kanye is not Jari.
Now, if I had $530,000 I could realistically get myself a pretty large house in Finland or certainly the most badass studio I could ever want. To be fair though, perhaps I'm missing what exactly is going into this place. Let's have a look at the floor plan.
Now, before I even look into what's going into this studio, let's just take note that this building is about the size of a standard house. Nothing too crazy in terms of costs per square foot at the end of the day, and according to Jari, the size of this property is really only worth about 100.000 €. Not bad. Alright, so what exactly is going into this place that the band is definitely building completely with the mindset of releasing material and delivering on their words?
Okay, so we've got a machine room, a cab mic'ing room, a control room, a rehearsal room, and... a living room? Okay, I guess we all need breaks sometimes. What else? Oh, a bedroom. Well I guess sometimes in the studio you can end up working pretty long hours and it's hard to drive to your own home even though the studio is being purchased in the area you live, effectively providing to you this convenience already. In any case, circumstances may arise where you need this. Whoa man, we've also got a kitchen? Hell yeah! Now I don't have to go out into the nearby town to where I live to cook food, I can just do it at work so I can more efficiently get this album out! Well, I guess it could be essential if we're going to be there this often. We've also got a toilet and showers because hygiene is pretty important, especially when you're working your ass off in the studio all day. You know what else is essential when you're working hard all day? Relaxation. For that reason, a sauna definitely was not a luxury, it's clearly a necessity /s.
Now, to leave all of that alone, this place has a pretty realistic size and should be well into being built. Prices of equipment for recording can get expensive, except for as mentioned above, it should really only range from $40,000 to $100,000. At this point you can record just about anything you damn well please right down to detecting an insect fart and mixing it into a masterpiece or making Time 2.
So at this point we've accounted for around $140,000 to $250,000 of this crowdfunding campaign.
Oh yes, we're only halfway done boys.
Now, we've still got a whole other $280,000 to work with. Hell yeah, this is great news! What else do we have to cover?
Whoa! The building is going to take about 250.000 €! That's crazy! Wait... What exactly... Does that mean? So, we've got the construction, we've bought the property... Isn't building the same as construction? No joke, maybe I'm misinterpreting this part. So maybe what it means is the building itself is going to cost 250.000€. Well shit, I guess that means Jari is planning on buying over $150,000 on recording equipment alone? Well, I guess that's not unheard of, but still pretty damned steep. At this rate the insect farts thing may well come to fruition after all.
Well if that's the case, we've pretty much accounted for the full amount of the money raised at this point. The only thing not covered are the taxes that are listed. Well, I guess that really just throws a wrench in ever-
WHOA! Hey look! Wintersun met their initial goal of 150,000€!!!! That's the "Safe goal for album release!" We'll definitely get Time 2 now by supporting our favorite ba-
OH MY GOD! Look! Wintersun met their second goal of 250,000€!!!! Remember guys, that's the "IDEAL GOAL"!!! We've not only secured the album release but built our favorite band a studio! What could they possibly do if they had nearly double this amou-
OH MY LAWRD
They've actually done it! The mad lads have raised half a million dollars! My favorite band will definitely release Time 2 now like they said and the other 4 albums worth of material that Jari has claimed he has wrote! There's no way at all that they'd earn all of this money and have nothing to show for it other than high end Daemoness guitars... Right? ... Guys?
And here we are.
3 years later.
Oh, look, a Patreon page? Wow dude, I can't wait to pay for the privilege of talking to my favorite band via the internet! Exclusive pictures! Wow dude! No way! Now I can pay to see Jari's nuclear luminescent face whenever I want?! Whoa! Don't forget, I also get access to their live videos that I certainly could not find anywhere else on the internet, namely a site that starts with a Y and ends in a -outube that I also just watched this very patreon announcement!!! But wait, there's more! Look, I get to see the band frolick around hotel hallways and cruise ships! Hell yeah! Now not only can I pay to watch my favorite bands shenanigans, I can sizzle my retinas to ash when I witness the sun reflect off of Jari's body on a cruise ship! What more could I want?! Dude, don't forget! This is helping us support our favorite band! I'm sure if we throw our money at them this time we'll surely get new material! It's not like it's been 17 years since their inception and they've only released 24 songs in that time!
Oh... Damn... Turns out, that is the case... Well, 24 songs is a lot right! Not many bands put that much work into their albums, and if they do, they don't release much music either!
Devin Townsend has released 19+ albums by his own band in as much time with less budget out of a pure labor of love and hard work ethic.
Whoa, who said that?! Devin Townsend doesn't make music nearly as complex or heavy!! Haha, haters, try again!
Equilibrium have released 6 albums in as much time with somewhere over 55 songs.
Well, Equilibrium only really had like 2 good albums! It's not like they shred as hard either!
Children of Bodom released 7 albums in just as mu-
Kalmah released 6 amazing albums in just as much time.
Time? What's that about Time? You'll get it when it's done, stop asking! You people are so entitled! Our true fans would throw money at us no questions asked!
This is a long post, so I'm going to close it out with this. Stop defending people who very blatantly take advantage of others. You're only re-enforcing shitty behavior. It's happening in nearly every industry imaginable now days because people are so quick to shell out their money before actually receiving a product, and unless people stop, it's not going to change. It's only going to get worse, if anything. So yes, you can sit here and try to convince yourself that you're not throwing fuel on the fire, but Time will tell, as it already has. Sorry, not sorry for the hot take, but it's 2020 and Jari is a scum bag and there are better bands by now. The self-titled was awesome in 2004. It is not 2004. Stop throwing your money at these people and expecting a different outcome.
Or maybe go ahead. Some people have to learn the hard way. I leave you with this now.
But we crowdfunded an album. We got the album and other perks as advertised. We were never investors in a recording studio. That's what they wanted to do, but shit often doesn't pan out, especially when artists (particularly artists without much business acumen) start making lofty goals.
You weren't given a business proposal. You weren't an investor in a recording studio. You weren't entitled to any dividends. You weren't given a business plan. You weren't given designs and quotations for a recording studio. You weren't paying for a different album. You got a specific album with perks, exactly as advertised. You need a reality check. Your sense of entitlement is as ill-formed as Jari's aspirations.
Learn some reading comprehension please, because right now you're clearly not understanding. Wrong. We did not crowdfund an album. We crowdfunded the building of a studio by purchasing an album. This is exactly how kickstarter and indiegogo work. And by "We" I didn't purchase anything, nor would I ever for a band like this.
You're right, we weren't given a business proposal or business plan, but the backers were essentially paying for this stuff with the intent in mind of helping to pay for a studio. If you think otherwise you're blatantly wrong. And in case you hadn't noticed by the picture up top, there was a design given for this studio. Hard to spot next to the burning light of the Sun, I know.
As for my entitlement, I could care less about a release from this band at this point. As I've said several times (Again, reading is hard, I know) this band was cool to me for like a year in 2004. The hype ended so long ago that I don't remember what it feels like.
As for my reality check, it hasn't been wrote out to Jari so I guess that doesn't work for you.
It seems Jari's glowing face blinded you from reading anything that I posted. Please put on some tanning goggles, re-read my post with fact checks from the band itself, and try bouncing some neurons around until the jumble of words up there go from "JaRi Is BaD, WinTeRSuN bAd" to actual information, because it's very much people like you and Metropolis here that need a reality check.
This is Pure GOLD!
One of the biggest complaints fans had was they paid for an album and only got half of one. Then the same thing happened for the forest seasons, fans basically got half an album again.