Separate names with a comma.
Discussion in 'General Music Discussion' started by jvms, Jul 31, 2014.
Agree it sounds kinda thin to me. The Forest Seasons sounds a little better.
and that's fine. i just personally think it sets a kind of dangerous precedent that musicians who fancy themselves as musical geniuses feel it's okay to extort tens or hundreds of thousands from their fans with the promise of great music in the future when it's been shown that you can make an amazing sound album for next to nothing.
an extremely high end computer will cost you MAYBE $5000 if you overdo the fuck out of it, and that's really for a very high end gaming setup. You don't need 1000s of dollars worth of GPUs to produce music. throw in a couple sets of monitors and your choice of a couple amps/mics or a digital processor (helix/kemper/axe fx) or even vsts that sound great and you can put out music that 20 years ago would have cost tens or hundreds of thousands to record, for less than $10,000.
if you can't make something sound good without tens of thousands of dollars of studio equipment and outboard gear, then the problem is you and not the gear
I think people are being a bit harsh about it. Extortion? If people want to be a part of the crowdfunding stuff then surely that's down to them and how they want to spend their money. I doubt people would pay for something like that if they felt they were getting extorted.
And where does the idea come from that Jari fancies himself a musical genius? Has he referred to himself as such or what?
I agree that a lot of money and high-end gear seems unnecessary in order to make good music, but if Jari feels he needs more money to make his vision reality and people are happy to pay, then I don't really see the problem.
Hell, you can get a PC for like $3000-3500 with a Ryzen 9 3950X, 128 gigs of RAM and Nvidia 2080 Super, and that's about as much as they're making on their Patreon every month. If Jari is doing work that he for some reason can't run on that but 99% of every other content creator in the world can make work then he needs to outsource the rendering.
This is really the main takeaway here. Gear doesn't make better music, and if you don't know how to use it, all the greatest equipment in the world will still sound like ass.
I'll give you that extort was probably the wrong word. On the other hand, he did a crowdfunding campaign that raised $500,000 3 years ago for an album that was already recorded and hasn't delivered on any promises that he made. No studio has been constructed, no extra material has been released. Just more promises that haven't been followed through on, and now there's a patreon that people are (of course, willingly) giving their money to in return for...what, exactly? The guy has a track record of not hitting milestones and not meeting deadlines for his label and people still line up for whatever reason with shovels full of money to throw on the pyre. More power to them but it blows me away that people are willing to give so much money to someone who the only way they could be described as "reliable" is as being unreliable.
Can someone, perhaps a Wintersun fan, explain for me? I listened to Time 1 earlier and it absolutely didn't sound like anything special from a production perspective. Was the fund raising for a private studio intended to produce a better result the second time around?
Also, not a question that needs answering, but the singing, oh god, the singing. It's so camp.
What I've gathered is that Harry Menopause thinks he'll be better at mixing if he has better equipment, but first he needs to have all of his bills paid, buy a massive property, convert it to a world-class studio/resort, and acquire some NASA-level computers to render audio before he can start mixing.
He is refusing to release music he already has recorded until he gets half a million dollars. Got it!
Maybe he could complete the project cheaper if he sourced his equipment at ma-and-pa stores?
Maybe he needed the money to go musical production school. That shit costs money!
I kid, I kid he doesn't need any of that obviously!
Actually, studying's free here in Finland
Maybe he can just rent some studio time at an already existing studio.
He could, many, many times over with the money he's already received. Unfortunately for his vision to be complete he has to do it all himself in his own facility because his creative genius cannot be properly interpreted by anyone else or in any location that his spirit does not feel at home in (or some stupid bullshit, but said in an exuberant Finnish accent.)
I know Universities are free in Finland but I'm not sure they cover music production. Even so I'm guessing there aren't places in Uni for everyone and there must be a selection process either by exams or grades. I'm sure though that there would be private music schools that teach music production that wouldn't require any of the above but might be relatively expensive. Not 500000 expensive but still...
So The Forest Seasons is his "lesser" work then, in which he still wanted donations for, but yet it's not a good enough project for it to warrant his own studio with all the bells and whistles?
If only some oligarch would come along and buy them their HQ, give them a hefty advance, then we could wait around for music that won't be as good as the first album to not be released due to new circumstances.
Not sure how many people remember this NA tour from a few years ago, but it was Wintersun, Fleshgod Apocalypse, Arsis, and I forget who else. Anyways, some of you may also remember that Arsis had to start a crowdfund campaign to be able to stay on the tour with James Malone offering haircuts and guitar lessons to fans before shows. I went to the Tampa date of the show and every band put on a pretty good performance. I met the guys from each band that night and all of them were really cool. The Wintersun guys all seemed like good dudes, and I really enjoyed getting to talk with them and shoot the shit about music and other non-sense.
A few months later I went to see Arsis again at the same venue and got to talking with one of the guys from the band and brought up the situation that had happened when I'd last seen them about the crowdfunding to stay on tour and whatnot. So come to find out Wintersun was actually charging every band on the bill a shit ton of money to tour with them as well as covering a huge majority of the tour related expenses. This wasn't relayed to any of the bands up front and was later thrown on them by the dudes from Wintersun after the dates had been booked and the lineup was solidified. Essentially, each of these bands had to spend thousands of dollars (If I remember right Arsis had to raise like 15k or something) to be able to go on this tour with the almighty Wintersun.
From that point on (I think this was in maybe 2012 or 2013, I'm not sure) I began to become pretty skeptical of what I'd always heard about Jari for years, and that's rumors of him being a procrastinator and greedy. I can remember reading the old Wintersun forum posts by Jari himself back in like 2006 or 2007 where he was claiming that Time was already completely wrote and that he needed an insanely powerful computer to be able to record it. At some point it escalated from that to "We need a label to fund us", and then to "The label isn't taking care of us like we need them to, we need our own studio now ***complete with a sauna mind you***" This is actually after having received each of these things of course, minus the studio because for some reason that "Forest Seasons" money went somewhere else. Odd huh?
I loved the self titled album when it first came out. It's a benchmark that few bands have ever come close to touching in melodic death metal. Still though, I can't in good conscious buy into this man's bullshit anymore. Honestly, the rest of the band I consider to be just as bad as him for tagging along with him to take advantage of not own only their labels, peers in the music industry, but most importantly, their fans. They've all been dangling TIME in front of everyone like a carrot on a string just to milk more money out of people.
17 year old me loved Wintersun, but adult me isn't naive enough to think that any band out there makes good enough music to excuse this kind of behavior. Watching their Patreon video on youtube was one of the most cringe-inducing things I've seen in a long time and watching Jari's mannerisms, ie. constantly throwing his hands up in "I'm-14-and-this-looks-metal" poses every 2 seconds while he tries to push his shitty product on us like a crooked-car salesman really is the last nail in the coffin for me. The man has no respect for anyone around him and his ego and sense of entitlement is so large there's no way any record they could release would be enjoyable to me knowing that I'm giving this pretentious asshole more fuel for his toxic behavior.
I know this is quite a rant, but it's been a long time coming. I firmly believe that Jari and Wintersun are to music what EA are to video games. I'm fine with leaving the memories of listening to Battle Against Time and Winter Madness back where they were. I'd like to say Wintersun had a good run, but honestly the only people running has been the fans to catch whatever non-sense these guys throw their way with very little in return in terms of decent music. There are better bands out there in every sense of the word, and there are vastly better musicians that not only appreciate their fans more, but are also humble and good human beings.
TL;DR - No, Jari is not a really nice guy. Not even a little.
To be fair now, tour buy-ons are very very commonplace in the industry. I don't know how they could only relate this to the bands while they went on tour. Surely their management would have signed off on the touring contract before hand?
They probably had a contract for the tour, and it's not only for the main act to decide how financial side is handled. For that there is Nuclear Blast.
The Forest Seasons money hasn't gone anywhere. I can actually see Jari's company's sales/renovation amount from 3rd fourth of the years 2018 & 2019. It's public information in Finland and I can get more information for paying little amount of money. But I'm not that interested.
Everything else is old and you can now stop spreading fake news about their crowdfunding, and start to enjoy their music like every Wintersun fan who is not incredibly salty and butthurt about the past.
How to dangle with an album no one has never heard of... I don't even know where slandering with Jari's so called "ego" comes, these people must have problems with such things themselves. In the end Jari hasn't even scammed anything, no matter how hard some individuals try to claim that he has.
"Better bands" or human beings, that's all subjective. I will never get why people like to talk shit about things.