Wintersun's Jari Mäenpää on Time II Problems

Discussion in 'General Music Discussion' started by jvms, Jul 31, 2014.

  1. j3ps3

    j3ps3 SS.org Regular

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    It's a business. At that point you can't really say that it's not about money. Jari is selling a product which, to me at least, in a business sense is the same as those "Imma Nigerian prince give money" emails. He is always asking for more without giving you the actual product you paid for. It's always something around that what he gives you, just to keep you interested and throwing more money at him. That's considered a scam.
     
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  2. Zalbu

    Zalbu More time than skill

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    Another funny thing when people bring up the comparisons to Nightwish is how Time I barely sounds any better, production or ambition wise, than Nightwishs early albums that were recorded by a new band with hardly any recording budget back in the late 90's/early 2000's, because Tuomas is actually competent and knows what to do with what he's being given.

    Jari should just hire Tuomas as his producer, but Jaris ego would never be able to handle that :lol:
     
  3. technomancer

    technomancer Gearus Pimptasticus Super Moderator

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    You left out getting suckers to donate money :lol:
     
  4. Metropolis

    Metropolis SS.org Regular

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    Nightwish went to massive amount of tracks in mid 2000's and before that their approach was really different and much closer to Wintersun's first album. Some of the sounds were bit cheap in today's standards, but it didn't make music itself worse back in the day. Century Child released in 2002 was the first Nightwish album with real symphonic orchestra, which was a big improvement in that regard.

    Time I is really orchestrated to the max and has so much little things going on that you don't even know that some of them exist, unless you would make them disappear. "You don't hear all those tracks in your head" is one really bad argument what I've seen here. Of course you don't, and it's about trying out them in a mix what matters.

    Only if you would want Wintersun to sound like a Disney movie soundtrack :lol: Which is not a bad thing, but not just their thing... overall the approach and genre is still really different, and I find these kind of comparisons to be apples vs. oranges. What I read about Nightwish albums since Once is that Tuomas doesn't arrange everything in orchestrated parts by himself, he works with the hired symphonic orchestra for it.
     
    Last edited: May 3, 2020
  5. j3ps3

    j3ps3 SS.org Regular

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    How come it's an bad argument? I think it shows lack of professional skill on Jari's part. In my opinion, whatever art you're making, at some point you need to leave it be and accept it for whatever it is. Bad or good, you hopefully learned something new from it and can apply it in the future for whatever you're making.
     
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  6. gnoll

    gnoll SS.org Regular

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    Tbh I really think "cheap" sounds work better in metal. If you have strings that sound a bit synthetic, usually that equates to better cut and attack, which is perfect for metal. I don't like full, real orchestras in metal, or vst instruments with a million tracks for that matter. Better show some restraint, pick your sounds wisely and work on a good, simple arrangement.

    I remember hearing Fredrik Nordström talk about working with a real orchestra or at least string section for a Dimmu Borgir album, and apparently it was kind of a nightmare, and he had to do all kinds of stuff to the recording in order for it to actually work in the mix.

    People are going overboard with "realistic" sounds these days imo. The synth/rompler sounds of the 90s were perfect.
     
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  7. GunpointMetal

    GunpointMetal SS.org Regular

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    Exactly. And if that's much work to fit all those tracks in the mix, it's probably a pretty poor arrangement. If you have to work that hard to jam stuff in there, it's most likely completely unnecessary to the music.
     
  8. Metropolis

    Metropolis SS.org Regular

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    Totally a matter of taste, for some bands I prefer more synthetic sounding strings with simple arrangements, and some benefit from real instruments or realistic sounding samples more. For example Jari's approach is a mix of both worlds, which makes it pretty complicated.

    Sounds awesome in a mix or by itself in my opinion.

     
  9. TedEH

    TedEH Cromulent

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    Don't get me wrong, those don't sound terrible, but it's not genius, nor does it require bajillions of tracks. I'd argue it's too busy in a lot of places for something that's going to be covered up with instruments that were all designed to be very in your face, plus a dude screaming at you. I like metal as much as the last guy, don't get me wrong, but but lets be realistic about what we're listening to.

    I'd almost argue that this is an example of a poor process - so much of that orchestration is lost as soon as the band comes in. People are not listening for the subtle orchestral hits that mirror what the drummer is doing. Has anyone considered that the struggles mixing this are that there are too many elements fighting for your attention at once? And fighting for the same sonic space?
     
  10. Metropolis

    Metropolis SS.org Regular

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    Time I as a whole wouldn't sound nearly the same without them, and not many musicians are even willing to do such things in that way. Of course some of it disappears there and it's a struggle to mix, but everything has still it's place. Remastered version I've got in digital form sounds more breathing than the original cd-version which sounded bit too much packed and compressed.
     
  11. TedEH

    TedEH Cromulent

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    Tons of musicians would love to have a bunch of orchestrated junk behind their songs. But there's something to be said about restraint.

    Again, look at Devin Townsend as the comparison. IMO the best thing he's done in a while was Transcendence - which is an album that was musically able to breath and be concise and get its point across for two reasons -> he was willing to accept help and input from others, and the songs held back on the "throw everything at it at once" approach that he tends to fall into, which meant the musical ideas had enough space to develop and be properly felt.

    Brilliant doesn't mean "a lot of ideas". Everyone has a lot of ideas. Some of those ideas are good. Ideas are meaningless without proper execution.
     
  12. GunpointMetal

    GunpointMetal SS.org Regular

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    That's what I was trying to say above. Too many things happening in the same octave space/rhythmic space/melody space isn't "genius" and a real good producer would be pulling 3/4 of that stuff out of the mix and all of the music would probably be better for it.
     
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  13. Metropolis

    Metropolis SS.org Regular

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    For me Devin's latest album was just plain unmemorable, and being just about everything didn't bring anything to table, it's just messy. He's done same album all over again since Ziltoid - Addicted/Ki era anyway, if we look at his metal albums.

    Lot of ideas doesn't equal brilliant...

    I will stick with my opinion about production quality and style of Time I.
     
  14. j3ps3

    j3ps3 SS.org Regular

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    At least he releases music instead of holding it as a hostage for money. :shrug:
     
    Last edited: May 4, 2020
  15. Zalbu

    Zalbu More time than skill

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    And besides, Devin has released albums that are straight up grating to listen to because the production is so lousy, like Physicist, but he releases them anyways despite being a perfectionist because the music is the first priority.

    The only thing preventing Jari from releasing his music is ego, because he refuses to work with an external producer who can get better results with a tenth of the resources that he has. Look at Misha who recorded great sounding stuff in his bedroom with a POD and VST drums.
     
  16. Metropolis

    Metropolis SS.org Regular

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    Jari used Vox Tonelab SE and Line 6 Pod HD Pro in his apartment for The Forest Seasons. Guitar tones are pretty fizzy, cold, and digital in that album, but that's what he was going for I guess. VST drums and bass also...
     
  17. TedEH

    TedEH Cromulent

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    ^ Proving that you don't need your own state-of-the-art facility to express yourself, right?
     
  18. TedEH

    TedEH Cromulent

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    I agree with you here. But Transcendence was not the most recent album he's done. I wasn't a big fan of Empath, because it falls for the same problems that Jari has -> Too many ideas at once, a lack of focus, to much of a wall of noise, too much focus on production over the musical statements, etc.

    Note that I never said Devin was infallible. He's put out some stuff that's poorly produced, he did a fair amount of damage to the Lamb of God album he produced, he's put out some weird noisy stuff, he's put out music that verges on country - some of which I find almost unlistenable - but the one thing he has never done is fail to produce something or make a promise that he hasn't followed through with. He's honest and up front with what he's doing, and that's where the respect is earned from.

    I mean look at Ziltoid, since you brought that up. It's produced with objectively "bad" tools, but so many people love that album. If you can produce a beloved album using drumkit from hell samples on your own, then Jari can also make an album within reasonable constraints.
     
  19. gnoll

    gnoll SS.org Regular

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    I think it's pretty obvious that Jari "could" make an album with the means he has, but I guess he doesn't want to, or at least not for Time II. Fine, I guess? I think Time I is a mess and I'm not looking forward to Time II, but whatever, he can do what he wants. I can just listen to the first album instead. But I think it must be okay to try different things with music, and to have your own visions, goals and ambitions.
     
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  20. SamSam

    SamSam GAS problems

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    I wish Time I sounded like Dimmu Borgir or Once do... I enjoy Wintersuns music. But i am not a fan of the mix on Time I. The title track itself has a few spots which really annoy the hell out of me when I think what it could have sounded like with better production.
     
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