Well done, President Clinton. Well done.

tacotiklah

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Trench, sometimes I can almost imagine this being your reading material:
Help us destroy Jesus and start a new age of liberal darkness

Time to drape Trench in a cape made from the Iwo Jima flag, after eating an apple pie made by Aunt Bea herself and smoking from Douglas MacArthur's corncob pipe and arm him with a baseball bat signed by both Babe Ruth and Joe DiMaggio and send him soaring into battle atop a giant bald eagle to fight such evil socialism, communism, fagism, or whatever the hell you call it and nail that bastard Obama to the liberal-demon-blood-stained cross. Jesus commands it.

Or we could just state that people like him are what's causing the country to fall apart because they refuse to see the good in anything anyone else does. Nah, Jesus wouldn't want you to have peace, love and tolerance for your neighbor. It's all about how far you can shove your combat boots up liberal commie homo ass right?
 

Wrecklyss

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Late reply, but still on topic.

Being a company representative to this forum, i was trying to stay out of this thread.

Threnchlord, I resent the notion that conservatives are the most patriotic Americans. I am a democrat serving in the military and a gun enthusiast. I am extremely patriotic, taking great personal offense to disrespect to my flag or my countrymen. This is not just talk either, i took a job neutralizing roadside bombs so my brothers and sisters in arms can more swiftly and safely seek out those who would do our country harm.

My biggest complaint against Romney is that he wants to run the country like a business, which to him means always using the cheapest bidder and looking for maximum return. I think the American workers need to have a say, the people making the country move deserve financial security, and that we as a country should maintain a reputation of delivering the highest quality.

If Americans bought American, the county's economy could grow tremendously in under a year. You want to call yourself patriotic, let me see you supporting American production and American workers, or better yet, let me see you in uniform.
 

canuck brian

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Well what he might say is that when governing Mass. he was there to represent the majority in a very liberal state, thereby conforming to the beliefs and preferences of his constituentcy was in the best interest of his state.

I just want to confirm something here considering you're totally ok with Romney pandering to the most popular demographic.

If he's elected and the United States becomes 55% all for gay marriage, abortion, gun control, outlawing assault weapons, removal of all religion from state operations and everythign else that is against the Republican platform, it's totally OK for Romney to flip over to supporting these? It's totally cool if he just panders to what is popular to remain a popular President?

I'm literally just applying your logic to a larger scale as the United States would basically become his constituency.
 

Mordacain

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Aside from all the back and forth bickering, the thing that pisses me off most about all of this is that the idea of democracy seems to have been lost.

The idea behind democracy is not that the majority rules, the idea is that we come together as a united people, put aside our differences and work for the common good, not just the idea of what is good of whoever is in power.

Realistically, the majority of this country are not liberals or conservatives. We are mostly centrists (as are most people in civilized countries the world over). We have extreme polarizing groups on either end that have been able to usurp and monopolize the dialogue in this country and paint issues as either black or white when they are really shades of gray. Do most of the country really think that abortion is bad, that lbgt, women and minorities shouldn't have equal rights or that we should institute a theocracy? Hell no. Ive not seen a single independent poll that supports that premise, and yet that is where our country's dialogue has been directed.

The thing is, your average joe on the street could care less about who is in power, only that they have the opportunity to live the American dream. Unfortunately, that will remain but a dream until the richest few are not able to dictate the direction of this country to fulfill their short-sighted avarice.
 

troyguitar

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Majority rules is the very definition of democracy, which is why we have a constritutional republic and not a democracy.
 

Mordacain

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Majority rules is the very definition of democracy, which is why we have a constritutional republic and not a democracy.

No, that is a gross over-simplification. Here is what democracy actually is defined as:

Democracy is a form of government in which all eligible citizens have an equal say in the decisions that affect their lives. Democracy allows people to participate equally—either directly or through elected representatives—in the proposal, development, and creation of laws. It encompasses social, economic and cultural conditions that enable the free and equal practice of political self-determination.
 

Semichastny

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S̶o̶c̶i̶a̶l̶i̶s̶m̶ Democracy is a great idea on paper but it just doesn't work well in real life. (I'm joking)
 

vampiregenocide

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Democracy means 'rule/power of the people', not 'rule/power of most of the people'.
 

TRENCHLORD

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I just want to confirm something here considering you're totally ok with Romney pandering to the most popular demographic.

If he's elected and the United States becomes 55% all for gay marriage, abortion, gun control, outlawing assault weapons, removal of all religion from state operations and everythign else that is against the Republican platform, it's totally OK for Romney to flip over to supporting these? It's totally cool if he just panders to what is popular to remain a popular President?

I'm literally just applying your logic to a larger scale as the United States would basically become his constituency.

Very good point.
Yes, I'm all for the president representing the will of the majority because I have faith in the people's collective logic.
Obviously we can't run a national poll for every day to day decision that the president must make, but when an issue has a long feeling out process (like the affordable healthcare act), and is still clearly unpopular (as it was in the months preceeding the legaslation), then the will of the people should be served as best possible. IIRC that's kind of how Clinton did it in his later years.
 

troyguitar

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No, that is a gross over-simplification. Here is what democracy actually is defined as:

Democracy is a form of government in which all eligible citizens have an equal say in the decisions that affect their lives. Democracy allows people to participate equally—either directly or through elected representatives—in the proposal, development, and creation of laws. It encompasses social, economic and cultural conditions that enable the free and equal practice of political self-determination.

The ONLY way to treat everyone equally is to make every decision by simply siding with the majority. If you side with the minority, then you are giving those people more than an equal say. This is very basic logic here... everyone equal implies majority rules, no special treatment for minorities.
 

TRENCHLORD

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Threnchlord, I resent the notion that conservatives are the most patriotic Americans. I am a democrat serving in the military and a gun enthusiast. I am extremely patriotic, taking great personal offense to disrespect to my flag or my countrymen. This is not just talk either, i took a job neutralizing roadside bombs so my brothers and sisters in arms can more swiftly and safely seek out those who would do our country harm.

Thank you for your service to America :yesway:.

Just to clarify (which I should have done initially), I'm not even for a second saying that non-conservatives have any less patriotic intent.
I am saying that conservatism (in general, not getting hung up on every single issue debate) results in America's best interest being served.
IMO of course.
(yes I'm back pedaling on this one :lol:)
 

Waelstrum

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The ONLY way to treat everyone equally is to make every decision by simply siding with the majority. If you side with the minority, then you are giving those people more than an equal say. This is very basic logic here... everyone equal implies majority rules, no special treatment for minorities.

Not with EVERY decision. Historically, there have been cases in which siding with the majority would have resulted in having a worse democracy. For example, there have been times in history when the white majority in both our countries would have voted against legislation that would give voting rights to ethnic minorities.

In most cases majority rule is preferred, except when they're voting on the rights of minorities.
 

TemjinStrife

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If we had only conservative impulses, blacks would still be enslaved, women wouldn't be able to vote, we'd have no interstate highway system, no civil rights movement, and no space program.

All of these programs were relatively to incredibly controversial when enacted. Also, very progressive.

I think the United States is better off with all of them.

Similarly, universal healthcare, abortion, and gay rights are similarly controversial (for some ridiculous reason) and very progressive... yet when we have them in the coming years (and we will) they will be looked back upon as part of what makes America great.

Conservatism is necessary to ensure fiscal and moral responsibility, but this modern brand of radical regressivism is not truly conservative. It's a no-holds-barred race to the bottom that seeks to undo 90 years of American progressive achievement.
 

Varcolac

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If we had only conservative impulses, blacks would still be enslaved, women wouldn't be able to vote, we'd have no interstate highway system, no civil rights movement, and no space program.

All of these programs were relatively to incredibly controversial when enacted. Also, very progressive.

I think the United States is better off with all of them.

Similarly, universal healthcare, abortion, and gay rights are similarly controversial (for some ridiculous reason) and very progressive... yet when we have them in the coming years (and we will) they will be looked back upon as part of what makes America great.

Conservatism is necessary to ensure fiscal and moral responsibility, but this modern brand of radical regressivism is not truly conservative. It's a no-holds-barred race to the bottom that seeks to undo 90 years of American progressive achievement.



The West Wing, of course, is my pragmatic centrist fantasy of American politics. Clinton's speech was the closest I've seen in the real world to someone doing this; tellin' it like it is, and tellin' the regressive halfwits on the right where to stick it.
 

Mordacain

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The ONLY way to treat everyone equally is to make every decision by simply siding with the majority. If you side with the minority, then you are giving those people more than an equal say. This is very basic logic here... everyone equal implies majority rules, no special treatment for minorities.

No, again an over-simplification. Majority rule decides which representatives are elected. Those representatives are charged with considering the best interests of all of their constituents, not just the ones who voted for them or the ones who gave them the most money.

The way the elected representative is supposed to work is to debate, listen to all points of view and come to a compromise. That is not the case now, but that is the charter of democracy to deliver.
 


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