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Discussion in 'Politics & Current Events' started by mongey, Mar 2, 2016.
Let’s see how they spin this one.
They won't have to. The Trump faithful will simply say "fake news", same as they bleat to everything that deflates dear leader's narrative. The Trump camp itself won't even have to bother trying to address it.
The media, IMO, has actually handled this pretty well - I remembered seeing a few headlines to this effect on Monday, but then nothing further, so for a while there I was wondering if I'd imagined it until I did a search. Stories note he re-tweeted a tweet alleging an indivudal was the whistleblower, but not mentioning the name, and the story is getting very little traction which, IMO, is appropriate. If Trump won't protect a whistleblower's identity, the press shouldn't help him blow their cover.
so we have pompeo, bolton and mulvaney all sitting down with the president in august to try to convince him to release the aid because everyone thinks what they are doing is illegal (newsflash... it is). he refuses until the whistleblower comes forward, then he releases it when he realizes he got caught.
and now we are going to have a trial without hearing from these people under oath??? i would love a trump supporter to explain how that makes sense. how can you make a determination of guilt or innocence without hearing from the most crucial witnesses who have direct knowledge of what happened? why is trump blocking their testimony if they would exonerate him?
I mean, coding really isn't that hard, and I get the point of the message, but that's the type of group that seems set in their ways and will have a much harder time transitioning to new careers. Even though we really do need to move away from what or president calls "beautiful, clean coal".
The “anyone can code” argument is a failure, imo. It takes a certain type of person to sit at a desk and code 40+ hours a week. We really need to address what to do with the manual laborers in our society and sending them to a desk is not the answer to me. I think coding will get replaced in a large part by AI in the not too distant future. I would argue we need to get these dudes to help rebuild our roads, bridges, airports, school, and then help to maintain them. What is wrong with guys working with their hands?
Really, that's the best solution: vocational training. We'll always need plumbers, steamfitters, electricians, machinists, carpenters, mechanics, etc. Skilled trades are in very high demand, and have been for almost two decades now.
It's just going to take a huge investment in people, and the second you start talking about investing in people folks get all emotional about how they never got a hand out, etc.
The skilled trade apocalypse is coming. We just don't have the apprentices to replace the folks who will be retiring in the next five years.
I pulled that quote out because that is almost universally understood as the "out of touch" line from Hillary in 2016. It's not that it applies exclusively to people working in coal mines, it's telling people working blue collar and manual labor type jobs that they're obsolete. That one line alone echoed in the midwest (where Hillary lost traditional blue collar union Democrats and ultimately lost the electoral college).
And for the record, this is what Yang's campaign is founded on, and here's Biden pretending like 2016 didn't happen and that Yang hasn't already beat back all of those arguments. In all studies of significance, job retraining doesn't work. A minimal amount of workers choose to participate, those that do have a graduation right sub 10%, and the ones that do have a <5% success rate finding and retaining a job.
@SpaceDock is right and even if it weren't for AI in programming, IT companies aren't hiring 55 year old repurposed coal miners who are leaving somewhere they'd worked for 20+ and expect salary and compensation comparable, and likely have medical issues and will be retiring sometime in the next 5 to 10 years versus a 22 year old college kid with none of that baggage. It's a non starter.
And I don't mean to be condescending but throughout all of human history, there have always been people who work in the fields. That's not to say, like, dumb people work bad jobs, smart people work good jobs. That was the whole purpose of the labor and union movement in this country; to properly compensate and bring dignity to blue collar work.
Telling people that "work" for a living they need to go to college and learn to work behind a computer 1.) already lost one election 2.) does not work in practice.
~1:40 to ~6:50
You couldn't pay me to listen to those two talk at each other. Sorry.
These. So much these.
That's fine, the cliff notes is basically what I covered in my post. Also the fact people who gravitate toward blue collar work are people who avoided or failed at college 30 years earlier in the first place. Also that the bulk of the "learn to code" argument is basically a condensed argument that blue collar work has little value in the modern world and they're encouraging people to work in STEM fields when meanwhile 8% of current jobs are in that work, so you're left with figuring out how to shoehorn 92% of people into 8% of openings.
They want more educated, unemployed folks working for scraps because they're easier to control. They're desperate and scared and will do everything to survive the next day even if it means selling out their future.
Trades folk have power. They organize and fight, and that scares the ruling class on both sides of the aisle.
For the record, I'm not a Yang guy but I think everyone that's made it this far into the primary have probably one thing they're especially knowledgeable of (and it's just a matter of how 1:1 that "thing" is to beating Donald Trump and governing), and that's one thing he's handled more concisely than everyone else.
Having had worked with quite a few older blue collar folks, I get the ipression that it's a thing of pride above all else. Telling them to do college and become white collar is like telling someone to change religions. It's not only insulting a person's traits, but it's insulting their pride pretty directly.
And coal mining was never really a high paying occupation like oil derrick work or factory work.
STEM jobs have not been as opprotunity rich as they were prior to 2008. It's a severely undervalued skill set currently. Older people aren't letting that sink in. Sure, you can make a lot of money, but most aren't. Skilled trades aren't even really making what they could be, but they bounced back better, that's all.
But anyway. Biden is polling poorly in Iowa and NH, so I get the feeling that he's losing momentum and, once the primaries start in earnest, he'll lose more momentum. But if the DNC continues pumping his campaign, it'll just end up repeating 2016 with a stale candidate republicans hate and only half of democrats can stomach. I think we all know that Trump is certain to be acquitted in the Senate, and once impeachment is over, the GOP is going to go after Biden relentlessly over Ukraine (which he has no way to respond to it, being that the accusations aren't even really directed at anything he did). If 2020 winds up just being a shittier version of 2016, be prepared for an even more belligerent Trump in 2021.
The GOP and Democratic parties both have been really proving their incompetence at governance for my entire lifetime, but the last five-six years, they've turned it up to ludacris speed. This year, they are both poised to try to make another quantum leap. Hot take: time to replace them all.
Oh totally. It's actually quite remarkable the way the Democratic Party have turned their back on labor, with how they were THE party of Unions for the last 100 years but you look at how they elevate tech companies like Facebook or Amazon that are rabidly anti-labor and it makes sense.
This has been my argument since 2015 at least, the Democratic Party of the 2010s was all about using identity politics like race and sexual orientation as leverage to claim progressivism, while selling out labor and really most of the middle class.
You're spot on.
Losing labor is probably the single biggest misstep of the Democratic Party. Full stop.
It's allowed the GOP to swoop in and take over blue collar America.
Anecdotally, my dad went to visit my family who live downstate this last weekend. My grandmother is gravely ill and it seemed like an important (and maybe last) chance to get the whole family together.
Blue collar family, my grandmother worked as an aid in an old folks home and my grandfather was a union high rise construction worker. Not poor but a big family, so they lived modestly if-not hand to mouth. My grandmother is currently living off of Social Security and Medicare/Medicaid, my aunt and uncle have both been living there helping to take care of her, both of them have been on Social Security disability for at least the last 20 years.
Because of Facebook, everybody knows everybody's politics. My dad came in the door and all five of them started harassing him asking him why he doesn't like Trump and they didn't relent for the entire time he was there. It was painful, especially in the context of what's going on with everyone medically and everything else, and doubly when you're surrounded and also trying not to attack people in an otherwise solemn event. At one point my aunt said "anyone would have to be a total idiot to be a Democrat, I don't care who you are" so my dad said "where do you get your news from?" "I get it from a lot of places, I watch Fox News, AND I listen to Sean Hannity AND Rush Limbaugh on the radio".
He was obviously very uncomfortable with the whole thing but he squeaked through, finally was ready to leave and as a group they insisted he watch this video on the computer before he went. He said no, no that's okay and they insisted, so he did and it was I guess a YouTube video of Joe Biden superimposed into the Dog Whisperer being led around on a leash and told "no" not to touch people. It was so low brow and so low IQ.
But THESE are the people we're led to believe Joe Biden wins. Can't have a progressive candidate, they'll scare off all the blue collar and retiree class with all their socialism talk. You need somebody who's a centrist who can get their respect. It's totally 2016 replayed.
What the Democratic Party doesn't understand is that:
A) They abandoned these people and it's going to take a heck of a lot more than crusty old Joe Biden to win them back.
B) These folks don't like to be talked down to. Most blue collar folks have been talked down to by management and who they perceive as the "liberal elite" forever. They can see through the bullshit when they want to.
I work with these people.
Sorry you and your dad had to deal with that, @Randy. Shit like that is the worst. I've pretty much excommunicated much of my extended family over this (I'm pretty sure they've done the same), and it's unfortunate.