US Political Discussion: Trump Administration Edition (Rules in OP)

Discussion in 'Politics & Current Events' started by mongey, Mar 2, 2016.

  1. allheavymusic

    allheavymusic SS.org Regular

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    Very simple litmus test: anyone who doesn't despise John Bolton as a warmongering ghoul is not on the left. Anyone in the DP who received John Bolton warmly was a centrist or neoliberal. There's nothing Bolton can do that can make up for what he's already done.

    Neither party has any real disagreements in their ideology, except that they each want power. That's why the DP is so quick to praise anyone on the right who lobs the mildest bit of dissent towards Trump. The DP is fully invested in defeating Trump but they don't actually disagree with the core values that he's operating from. It's the Reagan era repeating itself, and just like with the Clinton administration, the only thing that they'll change is that the (R) becomes a (D).
     
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  2. Drew

    Drew Forum MVP

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    I still don't have the faintest idea what a "neoliberal" is. :lol:

    In case it wasn't clear in my post, I meant rank and file democratic voters, not the elected officials themselves. I think the tendency to play "teams" in politics and welcome anyone who can help your "team" in the short term is something both parties' supporters do, and in the interest of intellectual honesty, it's important to note that it's not just a Republican thing. I think in the case of the Democratic Party, then it's a lot more self-aware and cynical. If Sondland is praised by Democratic officials for speaking out, they know full well he's a snake but also concede that sometimes you have to play the hand you're given. That seems to be a small distinction, but if Bolton does end up testifying, I guarantee you Pelosi will not be thinking he's an American hero, whereas many rank-and-file Democratic voters will praise his patriotism, and fully mean it.

    I'd also say that the Democrats DO disagree with a lot of Trump's core values - they're in favor of a fairer tax code, a liberal and relatively open immigration policy, the government playing an active role in extending health insurance and providing social safety net programs, and freedom of religion in the united states. Trump is opposed to all of those.
     
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  3. sleewell

    sleewell SS.org Regular

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    hate to say it but my prediction right now is that trump wins reelection. truth and facts are no longer even relevant to a vast majority of people. he has divided us beyond any ability to think logically and nothing really matters to his supporters. the infinite propaganda feedback loop that circles between the white house to faux news is too loud.

    dems are doing the right thing with impeachment but it probably will backfire because senators will not do their jobs. i think the tax cuts that only benefited the 1% will trickle down only in the fact that they will use a small fraction of their piles of money to convince the poor and middle class that it somehow helped them. people who hate trump will vote for him again to get more judges and/or to own the libs.

    all that in addition to a field of really weak dem candidates basically seals the deal for trump. makes no sense to me, the man is clearly a fraud, but that just sadly does not seem to matter to people. scary time for our country for sure, when checks and balances and the rule of law both fail it could be downhill from here in a hurry.
     
  4. Adieu

    Adieu SS.org Regular

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    But.... are they getting elected for their politics? Or making up politics TO get elected?

    Maybe just maybe the Republicans are sick and tired of their bible thumping bigot rednecks and the Democrats absolutely detest having to suck up to every socioeconomic ethnic and sexual minority and interest group under the sun???
     
  5. possumkiller

    possumkiller SS.org Regular

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    Yeah I think Trump is going to win hard in 2020. Just look at how the morons in the UK voted. It will be the same in the US. Just wait and see. All of this impeachment stuff is going to backfire and Trump will come out looking like Jesus Christ.
     
  6. Adieu

    Adieu SS.org Regular

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    Just FYI: Jesus Christ was convicted and executed by the authorities for rabble-rousing
     
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  7. Ralyks

    Ralyks The One Who Knocks Contributor

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    I'm still baffled by how every poll constantly shows Trump losing to almost every democratic candidate by double.digits, even Fox News, yet even I'm convinced hell get reelected somehow.
     
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  8. sleewell

    sleewell SS.org Regular

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    polls = shit. they were close the day before the election and Boris won in a landslide.
     
  9. Randy

    Randy Sous Chef Super Moderator

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    Not putting any faith in the knuckledraggers that put him in there in the first place, but if he wins it'll be via more shenanigans like last time. A clean vote based on the last 4 years alone, I don't think he'd stand a chance.
     
  10. Randy

    Randy Sous Chef Super Moderator

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    I'd be weary of looking at that as a 1:1. Brexit was an ill conceived plan, as was Boris the first time around but they've largely been insulated from the repercussions of it. UK politics seems to be a "Do you want to do this? Are you really sure you want to do this? Are you really really really sure you want to do this?" process, whereas we dove right into Trump nose first.

    UK are reacting to the fact they voted twice for the same self destructive decision and haven't actually been given it yet, so they're tripling down on it. We've been living in Trump's America for three years and if fucking sucks.
     
  11. tedtan

    tedtan SS.org Regular

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    Statistically, I'm not sure I agree based on past impeachments.
    • Nixon (a republican) resigned before the full House voted on the articles of impeachment, the democrats picked up quite a few seats in the House and Seanate in the mid term elections, and won the next presidential election (Jimmy Carter); and
    • Clinton was impeached in the House and acquitted by the Senate, but the republicans won the following presidential election (Bush 43).
    Granted, this is a bit different, but keep in mind that 1) things were just as divided under Nixon thanks to the US's involvement in the Vietnam conflict, and 2) Clinton was impeached for lying about getting a blow job from an intern, something which has absolutely nothing to do with how well he performed, or didn't perform, in his role as president.

    Trump is as dirty as Nixon, but too stupid and egotistical to resign, so even if the GOP in the Senate let him off the hook, I don't think the American voters will.
     
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  12. possumkiller

    possumkiller SS.org Regular

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    And yet his followers are still worshiping him and murdering in his name thousands of years later...
     
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  13. thraxil

    thraxil cylon

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    I wish I didn't agree, but as an American living in the UK, I'm definitely having flashbacks today to the day after the brexit vote. No one here could believe that it would pass and brits would vote against their own self-interest like that. I still thought there was no way that Trump could win but I did start become more aware that the attitudes in the US before the election *felt* like they had in the UK so I think I was less surprised than many when he did win.

    I think just like with the 2016 presedential election, the polls actually weren't too far off. Keep in mind that the conservatives only got 43% of the vote here yesterday, but with the districting and first past the post system, that was enough to secure a solid majority. Just like how Trump lost the popular vote but still won by a pretty sizeable margin of electoral college votes.
     
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  14. spudmunkey

    spudmunkey SS.org Regular

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    So I know it doesn't actually matter, but have we crossed the legal-definition-line to say that Trump is "impeached"? Yes, I know that the term doesn't mean "removed from office", but at what point have we/will we pass that line? What needs to happen for him to be included in the list of "Impeched US presidents"?
     
  15. sleewell

    sleewell SS.org Regular

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    it just passed committee, the full house vote will be next week. i think they would need to lose 17 dems for it not to pass, which seems very unlikely.
     
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  16. Dumple Stilzkin

    Dumple Stilzkin Special needs member

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    All I want for Christmas is impeachment. Otherwise we set the precedent for other politicians feeling like they are above the law, a scary situation.
     
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  17. pwsusi

    pwsusi SS.org Regular

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    He lied to a federal grand jury, which is a felony and he was disbarred. Doesn't matter what the lie was about; it was still a felony. While this was the primary motivator Lewinsky was also a subordinate. With all the sex scandals and smears it's comical the "me too movement" throws this guy and his wife a pass. It's hard to argue he shouldn't have been impeached because Trump was getting B.J.'s in the oval office we all know he'd be held to a different standard and his head would role. That being said impeachment isn't a criminal trial so even though he committed a felony and was disbarred it's all political...so given that the economy was strong, he was very popular, and was a very good politician...who like Trump was somewhat teflon as his support seemed to sustain no matter what was thrown at him and he could lie and talk his way out of anything. At the end of the day it comes down to the senators who are voting during the impeachment and their own self-preservation. For the most part they will tow the party line, but ultimately it comes down to what's popular in their home-state and they're not going to vote in a way that will ultimately jeopardize their re-election.
    Nixon resigned because he knew the senate would convict him so either way he'd be out of office. he decided not to put the country through the process but also resign as his legacy (as bad as it is) would be that much worse if he were forced out. I would argue the opposite of your statement; that trump would be stupid to resign. He knows there is very little chance the house will convict him and he seems to think (right or wrong) that this may actually help him in 2020. Seems some even in this thread are coming to the same conclusion.
    Truth and facts are subjective. People are spoon fed selective data points from biased media talking heads that paints the one side of the picture that they want you to hear. Both sides are guilty of this. Some may call these facts but i would say they are simply data points, for which there are opposing data points. Very rarely do we know what the actual truth is because both parties are slimy and i'm sure there is a lot of info buried and swept under the rug that us stupid common citizens aren't supposed to know. Look at all the B.S. that's coming out with the FBI and CIA.
    I think most people don't have the time or interest to be open minded and seriously consider or look into the other side's argument...perhaps to actually be persuaded. It's much easier and more gratifying to listen to someone to tells you what you want to hear, reaffirms opinions you already have, and presents "facts" in such a way to make you feel superior and the opposition stupid (of course i don't mean you specifically...speaking in general terms).

    I would disagree that Trump divided us anymore than we were already divided. In fact i would argue that the hatred from the anti-trump people (including the portion of the media that is left leaning) has divided us more than he has. Sure he has rallied his base and his language often is devisive...but this is fuel added to a fire that is already burning. What has rallied his base even more is the hatred for this president and that (like him or not) one must admit is unprecedented when it comes to how a president has been treated. You can argue he deserves it, but to his supports there is a feeling that he's not getting a fair shake and the constant reminder that they are stupid people for voting for him. Whether that's true or not, telling someone that is going to do nothing but anger and motivate them. Guilty or not of what he has been accused of, the dems have done themselves a disservice by openly discussing impeachment before he was even sworn in. Then when it actually happens, legit or not, many people are going to dismiss it as B.S. None of this excuses Trump's rhetoric, but without the hatred for him he wouldn't be able to play the hand he is playing...and quite frankly he's pretty smart for doing so as it seems to help him politically.

    For some reason people seem to take him seriously and think he believes everything he says. He was once a New York liberal democrat....and for the most part i think he's just doing what other politicians are doing including what his predecessors have done in the past...say and do whatever you think you have to in order to score points with your base to gain more seats in congress to promote your agenda and get re-elected. I thought Clinton was the best at this but he definitely has a strong challenger here :)
     
    Last edited: Dec 13, 2019
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  18. spudmunkey

    spudmunkey SS.org Regular

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    If there's still time, please edit your post to include the obviously-missing "if" in that phrase...jesus, you've ruined my dinner. (and also, his head would "roll").

    The court of public opinion is always entertaining, because to this day, you still have people say "Clinton got impeached because he got a blow job from an intern."
     
    Last edited: Dec 13, 2019
  19. MaxOfMetal

    MaxOfMetal Likes trem wankery. Super Moderator

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    This gets brought up frequently, but deserves further context.

    Trump has changed political affiliation five times in the last three decades.

    1987: Registered Republican
    1999: Independence Party of New York (Center-Right)
    2001: Registered Democrat
    2009: Registered Republican
    2011: Independent
    2012: Registered Republican

    Twenty years ago, the Democratic Party was far closer to center, and it's worth considering how unpopular the Bush2 presidency at that time.

    The narrative that he was a long-time "liberal democrat" until he had some sort of awakening is not accurate. He's been registered as Republican far longer and more recently and anecdotally always has been unless it was very unpopular to be.
     
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  20. allheavymusic

    allheavymusic SS.org Regular

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    It'd be unwise to put too much stock in the UK's election as a predictor of the US's. As I understand it, the Conservatives were fully committed to being the Leave party for nationalistic and anti-immigrant reasons. Libdems went Remain IIRC. Labour didn't put out a firm stance on Brexit either way. This was probably their ultimate mistake, even though it's arguably the best position to take. There are left arguments for both remain (opposing the anti-immigrant, nationalist stance of the Tories) and leave (the Economic and Monetary Union is pro-capital and opposes labor). This is a core issue in the campaign that doesn't at all map to the US. It's also worth considering that UK press adopted and ran a wholesale fiction about Corbyn being anti-semitic. It would be...difficult to claim that in the case of the US's leftmost candidate.

    Were you born 4 years ago? Reagan/HW didn't go down for Iran-Contra even though congress passed an amendment specifically saying "do not do this". In fact, since Bush pardoned them all, AFAIK nobody faced ANY consequences for Iran-Contra. HW also got away with being the director during Operation Condor. HW started the Gulf War after giving Hussein the green light to invade Kuwait. And then W did the same thing a decade later, lying to start a horrific war in the Middle East without the approval of congress.

    The precedent was set a long time ago. If anything, this proves that Trump has figured out how to finally act presidential. All he needs is more dead bodies in countries the average US citizen can't find on a map.
     

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