US Political Discussion: Trump Administration Edition (Rules in OP)

Discussion in 'Politics & Current Events' started by mongey, Mar 2, 2016.

  1. MaxOfMetal

    MaxOfMetal Likes trem wankery. Super Moderator

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    The term "open borders" is just an appeal to emotion proliferated by RWNJ. It's a red herring inserted into the conversation specifically to conjure images of immigrant caravans coming over the border in droves unabated to take everyone's job and rape white women with impunity.

    Don't be so emotional.

    https://www.google.com/amp/s/thehil...-a-nation-of-open-borders-we-are-a-nation?amp

    https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.ny...-donald-trump-democrats-open-borders.amp.html

    https://www.salon.com/2019/08/03/ye...g-point-but-its-leaching-into-the-mainstream/

    But it's cool, you really don't care. :banana:
     
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  2. Evil Chuck

    Evil Chuck SS.org Regular

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    Are three random articles you found with a Google search that say Dems don't want open borders supposed to convince me of something? Here, I can do that too:

    https://www.investors.com/politics/editorials/illegal-immigration-democrats-open-borders/

    https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/...cratic-party-absolutely-supports-open-borders

    https://www.newsmax.com/jameswalsh/...immigration-reform-daca/2018/01/09/id/836059/

    https://thehill.com/opinion/immigra...n-borders-wind-up-closing-doors-for-democrats

    Are you convinced? No? Then you see how stupid that is. I could probably find an article that said my dog's poop was a cure for skin cancer if I looked hard enough.

    Also, I know your argument is weak right away because you pulled the race card. It's very telling that instead of acknowledging there might actually be legitimate concerns over the issue, you reduce other people's (that you've never met and clearly know nothing about) concerns to "they're just afraid of white women being raped with impunity".

    That is a typical conceited leftist point of view and is precisely why the person you loathe more than anyone on the face of the Earth is currently President of the United States. So congratulations, I guess.

    Here's my take on the whole thing, boiled down real nice: I don't think Trump is a good person and people like you are the reason he's POTUS. So this 387 page thread could really be boiled down to, "fuck, I guess I'm an asshole after all."

    Should I put a dancing banana here?
     
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  3. ExileMetal

    ExileMetal SS.org Regular

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    Before you do, just thought I’d point out his articles were not opinions or editorial pieces.

    Also, what’s your goal here? Telling everyone they’re wrong, or only “leftists”? And what does it mean if I’m a democrat that doesn’t support open borders? Is it possible in your mind to have nuance or subtlety around issues, or do you automatically claim all of us in our unsound thoughts can only conform to your inflexible, baseless, and self-admittedly uncaring view of things?

    But before I can commit to a viewpoint or idea and thus be open to scrutiny, vote Vermin Supreme!
     
  4. MaxOfMetal

    MaxOfMetal Likes trem wankery. Super Moderator

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    It shows that the concept isn't as simple as:

    "Dems want open borders. Repubs want border security."

    There's nuance there, not to mention both concepts aren't entirely mutual exclusive when looked at critically.

    Hopefully you'd consider the sources and journalistic integrity of the author before drawing any conclusions.

    It's downright sad that in the year of our lord, 2019, that is lost on a non-insignificant portion of people.

    And I know I'm right because of how tightly you're clutching your pearls.

    It is intellectually dishonest to divorce the racial and social baggage of the issue.

    It is morally repugnant to not consider it legitimate.

    A few things:

    While I think Donald Trump is a dipshit, I also hold that view of many politicians. Most probably. My malice is also not focused on one side. The fact that you think it is shows your own bias.

    It's also not mine or anyone else's fault that a bunch of people chose to vote for Trump. That's something that these folks are going to have to come to terms with. Stop blaming others for your mistakes, which is funny considering the scapegoat complex.

    Translation: the truth hurts and I rather make things objectively worse because ego.

    Or

    It's very telling that instead of acknowledging there might actually be legitimate concerns over the issue, you reduce other people's (that you've never met and clearly know nothing about) concerns...

    Only if you don't care.

    Where's the Vermin Supreme plug?
     
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  5. c7spheres

    c7spheres GuitArtist

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    Only an all powerful dictatorship or externalized human control force not yet know to humans, even if it is made up of humans, can actually fix the world in any type of meaningful way, globally. All the other systems have proven themselves failures time and time again. The problem comes with whether you like the changes or freedom(s) you're left with, but that's a personal issue, and not a global issue. The only other alternative is for people to actually practice a peaceful life and treat others fairly regardless of their views. Unfortunately, that doesn't seem to be happening globally, yet, but is still possible if we still have hope, practice peace and spread the love. Good luck.
     
    Last edited: Sep 11, 2019 at 2:24 AM
  6. Evil Chuck

    Evil Chuck SS.org Regular

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    The first and third articles are just articles about a Democrat saying "we don't support open borders". Why don't we ask my grandma what she thinks and use that as evidence? The NYT article is mostly just talking about Dems and a path for Dreamers.

    Yes, everyone is wrong, but you're mostly leftists in this thread so that's who I'm addressing here. If I could find a right leaning POV in this thread that I disagreed with I'd point that out too.

    That you're not an idiot like some of the more extreme and visible members of your party.

    Regular people who align politically with Democrats (or Republicans)? Sure, nuance is possible. I'm sorry your party has left you behind with all your sensible thoughts, but they've become quite extreme, generally speaking.

    You can scrutinize me all you like. My point is, it's all a joke. We cannot save ourselves from ourselves. The only logical choice is the guy who admits it's all a fucking joke. If you're late to the party don't get mad at me. Put a fuckin' boot on your head and let's talk about ponies.
     
  7. Evil Chuck

    Evil Chuck SS.org Regular

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    Listen, I'm sure irl you're a decent enough guy and we could probably even discuss things face to face like people used to, and even get along with one another (or at least not punch each other in the face).

    I wish we could all treat each other better, I don't want anyone to be the victim of hate, violence, racism, whatever. I'm not a hateful person. If you treat me with respect I will gladly return the favor. Please, if you don't mind, don't cast bullshit aspersions on me because we disagree with one another over political nonsense and I won't do that to you either. It's shitty. I'm not racist because I think open borders is fucking retarded. You're not a mouth breathing imbecile because you ascribe to a leftist point of view.

    My sincere apologies if I offended you.
     
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  8. spudmunkey

    spudmunkey SS.org Regular

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  9. possumkiller

    possumkiller SS.org Regular

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    Idk man that sounds pretty racist to me. That's like the very first thing a racist person would say. Followed closely by, "I have black friends".
     
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  10. MaxOfMetal

    MaxOfMetal Likes trem wankery. Super Moderator

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    You could say that there are very fine people on both sides.

    I both accept your apology and extend my own. It's easy to fall into the trap of making assumptions about each other.

    :hbang:
     
  11. Flappydoodle

    Flappydoodle SS.org Regular

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    Ah shit, now I get summoned back to this thread, lol

    Usually those views are pretty idealistic though. UK, Canada, Scandinavian countries - they all have their share of problems despite having much more "hybrid" systems than the US. I really think this is a "grass is greener" situation.

    You could argue that with healthcare, the US system is already more of a socialised system than others. Government healthcare spending (i.e. not including insurance company spending) per capita in the US is higher than anywhere else. So you're already spending more taxpayer money than the USA - just spending it in a much shittier and less effective way.

    THAT should be the outrage. That said, so much blame is misplaced - it isn't doctor salaries, drug companies, lobbyists, or any of the other commonly blamed entities. This guy (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marty_Makary) wrote a book about the system and why costs are so high. Long story short, it's complicated!



    Not sure if this was sarcastic or not, but there have been loads of factories all over China and SE Asia who made guitars. WMI did well because they could actually hit quality and cost requirements, and be reliable.

    With regards to poplar, that's just some trend which isn't really driven by limited manufacturers. It's like, why can'y you get a phone with a physical keyboard any more? Why are they all massive? The iPhone 5s was only a few years ago. That's a consumer trend, not a feature of capitalism.

    Not sure how many people here have ever done business in China, but it's NOT easy. They will basically lie to you, cheat, steal, produce knockoffs and generally fuck you over. All of that will just wreck your margins, and shit quality will disappoint your customers and ruin your brand. Any company (such as WMI) which is able to deliver is going to succeed. There are still plenty of competitors, but none are measuring up.

    I partly agree with this. But that's not really a "monopoly". You simply had one company which made terrible strategic decisions and they lost out to a competitor. At the end of the day, people could have simply not upgraded to whatever new NVIDIA product. If they *were* willing to pay those higher asking prices, then that upgrade must have still been worth it. If not, sales would suck and prices would have come down. In that instance, capitalism is still working fine - you just don't like the results.

    I also don't believe it's a feature of capitalism, but rather a feature of 2019. Entering the semiconductor and chip design industry isn't something you can just do. It's decades of built up know-how, IP and talent accumulation by the company. As things become more technological, barriers to entry are going to be steeper. There's still plenty of competition in other industries, and especially those with smaller barriers to entry such as retail, food and drink etc. Despite Starbucks, you still have very successful and abundant independent coffee shops.

    Don't get me wrong - there are problems and monopolies do exist, but quite often those are monopolies which happened BECAUSE of government, such as giving out contracts which gave that company a stranglehold.

    Have you ever experienced an alternative system?

    And let's be real here, the USA is still only of the most socially mobile countries in the world. I'm not even American and I can say that. Plenty of other countries have formal and informal hierarchies which WILL keep you down and you can NEVER reach beyond a certain point.
     
  12. Flappydoodle

    Flappydoodle SS.org Regular

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    Can we propose a new topic of discussion?

    China.

    Seems to me like the media and Trump's opponents are attacking him for the whole "China trade war" thing, but it's more opportunist to hurt a guy they hate, rather than actual disagreement. I wonder whether secretly lots of them realise that what he's doing makes sense.

    My opinion is that that what Trump is doing is justified. Furthermore, it should have ideally been done a LONG time ago. Obama, Bush and Clinton were all asleep at the wheel.

    China has absolutely abused the world order in order to catch up, and their goal is to dominate. They're not even shy about saying it. They want to overtake the EU and overtake America, and everybody has been ignoring it. They use institutions against us, since we generally follow rules and they do not. So we end up crippled by our own good intentions, and they run right past not giving a shit. A very good example is environmental laws. China DOES NOT GIVE A FUCK about whatever laws the "international community" comes up with. But they're very happy to keep the charade going, happy that we spend extra time and money complying, while they shit all over it. (That's not to say we should also say "fuck it" and pollute everything, but rather we should force them to play fair.)

    The US and UK intel services agree that Chinese government performs organised intellectual property theft in order to benefit their companies. They are also highly active online - far more than the Russians. 100% they are shaping our politics, sowing discontent in our populations, spreading outrage etc.

    They operate with far less ethical standards than Western countries. This is particular evident in science, especially biosciences where they are more "relaxed" about animal and human testing, while the West is making those things much harder to do. Their foreign graduate students could rightly be called "spies" in many instances - since they will take know-how back to China, set up their own labs and companies, get government funding, and then out-compete us. This is exploiting the good nature and ethics of science where collaboration is encouraged but there's an assumption of good faith. Same goes for manufacturing - they'll lie, cheat, steal your IP, sell cheaper knock-offs of your product and cut every single corner they possibly can to squeeze out a single extra penny. They're still getting busted with child slave labour, for example.

    You've also got a country which is pretty fucking evil on a large scale. Building artificial islands and putting missiles and bases on them in order to control waters, shipping routes and other countries. Locking up literally millions of people for being the wrong religion. Locking citizens up (or "disappearing" you) for criticising the government. Carrying out mass censorship, mass facial recognition, social credit scores and other dystopian visions.

    You'd think that the left wing would be pretty horrified by China when it comes to the environment, treatment of minorities, and you'd think the right wing would be upset by their imperial military ambitions, quashing of freedoms, and you'd think both sides would be united against them stealing IP, disrupting elections etc.

    But apparently everybody is terrified to act. The UK has bent over for them. And when Trump is actually brave enough to do something, the rest of the government just kinda turns a blind eye, and opportunist Trump-haters whine about soy bean farmers.

    Thoughts?
     
  13. StevenC

    StevenC SS.org Regular

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    Now, you don't read this thread so it's fair to give you a pass here, but every unbiased lib-pwner that comes in here says that.
     
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  14. Adieu

    Adieu SS.org Regular

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    That's why the Illuminati killed him.

    He was making The Truth public! @Evil Chuck , man, avoid urban archways like the plague!


    Avtually, better yet, stick to your native trailer park (100% archless, I'm sure) for safety and everyone's peace of mind!!
     
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  15. MaxOfMetal

    MaxOfMetal Likes trem wankery. Super Moderator

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    We're kind of reaping what we've sown.

    We [US] gave corporate interests incentives to offshore, and they took it. Short term, it was very profitable, but as you said thanks to their manufacturing capabilities and willingness to steal IP, they'll be paying in the long run, at least eventually.
     
  16. Adieu

    Adieu SS.org Regular

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    China's living the American Dream.

    If undermining their rise is a valid goal unto itself, fine, so be it... but in that case, high time to ditch that hypocritical values crap everyone in American politics loves to spout.

    It's blatant self-interest and playing dirty to preserve the status quo.
     
  17. Ralyks

    Ralyks The One Who Knocks Contributor

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    Short answer on China: Nobody wants to pay $12,500 for an iPad. I wish I was being sarcastic, but that feels like the gist. I'm just using the iPad as an example (even if it's true), but if everything is American made, you're going to see prices on everything go way the fuck up. And as MaxOfMetal said, we kind of did this to ourselves.
     
  18. thraxil

    thraxil cylon

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    I actually agree with most of your assessments of China (and I lived there for a while in the 90's). I just don't think that any of them really have anything to do with why Trump started the trade war. It really seems like he saw the trade deficit numbers and decided that that meant that China was "winning" against the US (plus maybe wanting some optics of being the tough guy, standing up for US manufacturing, etc). I really don't think it was any sort of principled stand against them for censorship or human rights.

    I also agree that Clinton, Obama, and Bush should've been taking a more aggressive attitude towards China for those reasons. But they didn't because they realized that strong trade with China was beneficial to the US, at least in the short term. The problem is that now, in 2019, a trade war like Trump is trying to do won't work. China has too much leverage and it's going to harm the US far more than China.
     
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  19. MaxOfMetal

    MaxOfMetal Likes trem wankery. Super Moderator

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    I agree with everything here. :agreed:

    Maybe a trade war would have worked at the tail end of the Clinton administration, and probably would have worked immediately after 9/11 during Bush2, but after that returns would be too diminishing really.

    And while I'm not strictly against a trade war, I don't think this administration is up to the task. Though I suppose time will tell.
     
  20. Adieu

    Adieu SS.org Regular

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    You'd THINK so, but.... nah

    20190209_wbc312.png

    It's like 6% savings.

    And, as I understand it, that's manufacturing COSTS, so the impact on actual product price...would be a fraction of that.

    PS i think the bigger issue is INVESTMENT: a lot of Chinese stuff is essentially practice runs and alpha/beta versions, sold below cost to recoup SOME of the costs of tooling up and ramping up production when opening new factories....while they learn to get good and consistent, cut costs, upgrade, improve, achieve economies of scale, and eventually seek supplier contracts for future, mature versions of their product

    But THAT only happens when manufacturing is lucrative and growing, and people are lining up to throw money at building and expanding. No investment = no discount merchandise from newbie companies.
     
    Last edited: Sep 11, 2019 at 12:27 PM

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