US Political Discussion: Trump Administration Edition (Rules in OP)

Discussion in 'Politics & Current Events' started by mongey, Mar 2, 2016.

  1. Spaced Out Ace

    Spaced Out Ace 0 0 1 0 0 6 5 0 3\

    Messages:
    5,943
    Likes Received:
    2,466
    Joined:
    Jan 27, 2010
    Location:
    Washington
    Anyone out looking to argue should be ignored. Then again, I'm more inclined to ignore people who act petulant, which is the similar manner with which I'd parent. "Go act up in your room. When you're done, we will discuss it."
     
    MetalHex likes this.
  2. SenorDingDong

    SenorDingDong Smeller of Smells

    Messages:
    3,858
    Likes Received:
    1,011
    Joined:
    Jan 12, 2011

    I'm 50/50 on this, as all inferences are based on personal experience and bias.


    I see some kid with blue hair and piercings and I assume they'll be an annoying "Bernie will save the world" idealist with an angry streak that'll lead to an outburst if challenged on anything minor, will spout off rehearsed opinions without the ability to explain them in any detail other than repetition of words used in said opinion.



    When I see an old white dude wearing a MAGA cap, I usually assume he is at least "I have a black friend, though," level racist, and cares more about his own than the collective. He probably works decently hard in a labor intensive job but has the labor years of it far behind him and stopped fighting for the "little guy" about the time his pay raised from "back breaking and menial with few benefits" to "considered useless by most coworkers but untouchable due to seniority, and makes enough to own a home and send two kids to college."


    Dead center politics is hard, mang.
     
  3. tedtan

    tedtan SS.org Regular

    Messages:
    4,453
    Likes Received:
    946
    Joined:
    Dec 2, 2009
    Location:
    Never Neverland
    The thing is that we all form initial impressions based on superficial* information such as how another person dresses, behaves, etc. Sometimes these are correct and sometimes they are incorrect, but we all make them; that's how the human brain works and is part of what has allowed us to survive as a species. All we can do is keep our minds open so that the second, third, fourth, etc. impressions add more information so we can update that initial impression into a more accurate representation of what that other person represents.


    * I say superficial here because things like the clothing a person wears seems superficial on the surface, and many times they are (sometimes that blue bandana is just a blue bandana), but it often contains more meaning than we realize (sometimes the blue bandana signifies Crips affiliation, etc.).
     
  4. Drew

    Drew Forum MVP

    Messages:
    29,311
    Likes Received:
    4,848
    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2004
    Location:
    Somerville, MA
    Way to miss the entire fucking point. :lol:

    Three paragraphs about how a confederate flag is interpreted, one tossed off sentence about wearing a Yankees hat in Boston, and you choose to fixate on the Sox and the Yankees. THIS is why every time you post here I'm pretty sure you're trolling, because you always ignore the gist of a post and ignore it, and instead only cherry-pick something you'd rather talk about.

    As @thraxil was arguing in the REST of the post you chose to ignore, you don't seem to have a firm grasp on how symbolism works. "Whereas a MAGA hat, could represent many things, many ideas, or just one idea. Or like someone said, absolutely nothing." Sure, it could represent anything, or nothing, to the wearer. So could a confederate flag. So could a swastika. But, the wearer is just one person in society, and whatever it means to them personally, it also has a generally-accepted meaning in society as a whole. And to ignore those meanings and instead say that you and you alone get to define what something means and can ignore the socially-constructed, generally accepted meaning is either pure egoism, privilege, or stupidity. Take your pick.

    Two and a half years into the Trump presidency, I don't think there's a single white man in a MAGA hat who isn't aware that much of this country considers that a sign of racism and white supremecy, loosely akin to flying a Confederate Flag. If they're STILL comfortable wearing it to "piss off libtards" or whatever, well, that's on them, not me.
     
    Last edited: Jun 4, 2019
    StevenC likes this.
  5. MetalHex

    MetalHex SS.org Regular

    Messages:
    736
    Likes Received:
    477
    Joined:
    Mar 31, 2019
    I was going to make the Yankees analogy but Thraxil beat me to it...however I was going to use it in a different way. I didn't read past your first sentence because you misunderstood my post. I was making a completely different point using a sinilar analogy. Way to miss MY fucking point.
     
  6. Drew

    Drew Forum MVP

    Messages:
    29,311
    Likes Received:
    4,848
    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2004
    Location:
    Somerville, MA
    You quoted Thraxil's longer post about how he became aware of the broader connotations of the confederate flag. Don't try to plead ignorance here. He spent 99% of his post talking about why the Confederate Flag is a racist symbol not because of how he feels about it but because of how society feels about it, and finished with one sentence about the Red Sox and Yankees, and that one sentence was all you decided to address, because it was easier to argue symbolism isn't actually a thing when you're not talking about loaded symbols.

    Grow up. If you want to be treated like an adult here don't go changing the subject whenever it's inconvenient for you.
     
    StevenC likes this.
  7. MetalHex

    MetalHex SS.org Regular

    Messages:
    736
    Likes Received:
    477
    Joined:
    Mar 31, 2019
    Yeah I responded to Thraxil post about the yankees thing in one fucking sentence. THEN, if you READ carefully, I responded to Randy, using MY Yankees metaphor, in an entire fucking paragraph. Why do you constantly cherry pick to fit your bias dude? Seriously. Let the people I responded to, answer for themselves ffs
     
  8. Drew

    Drew Forum MVP

    Messages:
    29,311
    Likes Received:
    4,848
    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2004
    Location:
    Somerville, MA
    Classic troll move, "I know you are, but what am I?"

    I'm not even talking about your response to Randy here. Thraxil wrote out a long and fairly nuanced post on how symbolism works and how a personal interpretation of something doesn't really matter when it's something with a strong social interpretation (such as a confederate flag), and then ended with a single sentence reference to the Yankees. You went on for three short paragraphs about the Yankees, completely ignoring the argument he was actually making about how what something means (or doesn't mean) to you doesn't matter if it's something that has strong connotations to everyone else.

    Go back and re-read thraxil's (excellent) post. If you're choosing to display a symbol - as anyone in a MAGA hat is doing - you have a strong interest in knowing how that symbol is going to be interpreted by others. You're completely ignoring that, instead saying "it can mean whatever I want it to." It can't, no more than your Yankees fan can mean you're a staunch Red Sox supporter.
     
  9. MetalHex

    MetalHex SS.org Regular

    Messages:
    736
    Likes Received:
    477
    Joined:
    Mar 31, 2019
    Ok. So then one bad apple ruins the tree, and when you represent the tree, dont be upset when the city wants to cut you down. That's what he is saying. Again thats just one way to look at it. My point is, ignore the tree.
     
  10. Drew

    Drew Forum MVP

    Messages:
    29,311
    Likes Received:
    4,848
    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2004
    Location:
    Somerville, MA
    And MY point is, you can't ignore the tree. Symbols have meaning, and if a confederate flag is broadly understood to be a symbol of hate and racial intolerance, you have to deal with that broadly understood meaning if you choose to display that particular symbol. Regardless of whether or not you agree with that symbol, you have zero control over how others respond to it, and you as a single individual have no say in which symbols have meaning and which don't.

    Any adult today wearing a MAGA hat, just as any adult today with a confederate flag emblazoned on the back of his truck, is well aware that for large swathes of the population that symbol is going to indicate the person displaying is a racist. If they don't want to be perceived as a racist, well, they have control over which symbols they choose to display, so there's a pretty easy way to address that.
     
    JoshuaVonFlash and zappatton2 like this.
  11. MetalHex

    MetalHex SS.org Regular

    Messages:
    736
    Likes Received:
    477
    Joined:
    Mar 31, 2019
    Inversely, you could say the same about black people wearing the Black Panther emblem on their jacket then, even though that movement was not racist, as a whole, at least from it's inception; though there are certainly blacks that despise white people and white european weatern culture. Just like the swastika was perverted to be a symbol of racism. Obviously not everyone in that Black Panther movement thinks like that (or do they). But again who cares what other people may think.

    So then, an American who wants to see America do better by any means, and supports their President, regardless if they agree with every single policy or not, should not wear a maga hat so that theyre not percieved as a racist? How does one show support for their President in office, "leader of the country", then exactly?

    As an example, I support our troops 100% Do I support the cause? 99.99% hell no I dont. But I still support our troops. Should I not go out and buy a bumper sticker that says "support our troops", juat for the fear that someone may perceive me as someone who wants to blow up the middle east? No need to answer that, just pointing out that no one needs to worry what other people think because of a simple misrepresentation/misunderstanding.
     
  12. Adieu

    Adieu SS.org Regular

    Messages:
    875
    Likes Received:
    583
    Joined:
    Jan 8, 2010
    Location:
    Moscow
    There are three categories of people with Support the Troops stickers:

    1) aforementioned troops and their families, trying to milk it for advantage
    2) chicks who think it'll get them out of a certain % of traffic tickets
    3) jingoist fools who want war because the idea of their country stepping on someone, somewhere (preferably conveniently distant) makes them feel superior by association

    ....so yeah, it's basically either assholes or people looking to take advantage. Often both.
     
    Randy likes this.
  13. tedtan

    tedtan SS.org Regular

    Messages:
    4,453
    Likes Received:
    946
    Joined:
    Dec 2, 2009
    Location:
    Never Neverland
    First, “by any means” is not acceptable. Only those means that are legal and in the public’s best interests are acceptable.

    Second, someone supporting a president who is doing things against their best interest is a fool.


    If someone knowingly wears a hat widely regarded as representing racist values without concern for others’ interpretation of said hat, that person is, at best, a self absorbed asshole. Or a troll.
     
  14. MetalHex

    MetalHex SS.org Regular

    Messages:
    736
    Likes Received:
    477
    Joined:
    Mar 31, 2019
    Welp, opinions do make the world go round! (though it is a bit wobbly)
     
  15. spudmunkey

    spudmunkey SS.org Regular

    Messages:
    3,143
    Likes Received:
    3,550
    Joined:
    Mar 7, 2010
    Location:
    Near San Francisco
  16. Spaced Out Ace

    Spaced Out Ace 0 0 1 0 0 6 5 0 3\

    Messages:
    5,943
    Likes Received:
    2,466
    Joined:
    Jan 27, 2010
    Location:
    Washington
  17. Drew

    Drew Forum MVP

    Messages:
    29,311
    Likes Received:
    4,848
    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2004
    Location:
    Somerville, MA
    Again, you clearly do not understand how symbols work.

    I don't know anyone still wearing Black Panther emblems today. I'm not intimately familar with them, but if their insignia is broadly interpreted as a sign of anti-white violence, and people are responding by not wearing it, I would suggest you pause and reflect upon that within the context of this discussion.

    "Support Our Troops" is a slogan embraced by pro-war and anti-war groups alike (on the left, the bumper sticker usually reads "Support our Troops - Bring Them Home!") and is a reminder that military service isn't political, and the troops themselves don't get to pick the battles they fight. It's a reminder of the old American tradition Trump is currently trashing that politics stops at the border. Accordingly, it's pretty much the inverse of a "blow up Muslims!" message, that regardless of what you think of the war, the troops risking their lives to fight it still deserve our respect. A better example would be one of those "Muslim Terrorist Hunting Permit" stickers, at which point, yeah, you're sending a pretty clear message.

    What you evidently aren't getting here, is if you're displaying a symbol that's broadly understood to have racist connotations, and if you think it's not sending that message, then you're the one making the misrepresentation or misunderstanding. If you're walking around with a confederate flag patch on your jacket because you think it's a cool geometric pattern, you're the one misunderstanding it's meaning, not everyone around you who takes one look at you and concludes you're a fucking redneck white supremacist.
     
    JoshuaVonFlash and Thaeon like this.
  18. Thaeon

    Thaeon Cosmic Question Asker

    Messages:
    1,357
    Likes Received:
    663
    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2008
    Location:
    San Antonio, TX
    Cultural symbols work one way. What the consensus perceives them to be is what they are. That's how they acquire their power. Its part of a social contract. If you wear something that carries a cultural meaning it has the meaning congruous with the consensus. Not the meaning the minority wants to project. However truthful or disingenuous that meaning is. A pentagram is associated with certain things because of what MOST people see it as. They being christians. Pagans have had the genuine meaning of their symbols co-opted by the consensus. This would be a valid way of articulating what I think you're trying to articulate. If you wear one though, you WILL be seen by be consensus as absolutely counter to their worldview. However isolated from that perception your genuine paradigm is. You WILL be lumped into that group. Period. So if you make the choice to wear a symbol, you are quite literally making the statement that you accept the yolk of consensus perception that comes with it. Both sides of the coin. You are willing to accept being seen how you are seen. You can't make the argument that you don't know what both sides perceive if you are from the culture in question. If you wear a MAGA hat, you will be seen as an ignorant, fascist, isolationist, xenophobe by a large portion of the people of the US because you are wearing Trump's slogan and HE is those things. You can show support for the office of the president without supporting the man in the office by the way...
     
    thraxil, zappatton2, Drew and 3 others like this.
  19. vilk

    vilk Very Regular

    Messages:
    5,513
    Likes Received:
    1,974
    Joined:
    Apr 30, 2013
    Location:
    Chicago
    If anything, demanding the impeachment of Donald Trump is the best way to support the Executive Branch and the US Constitution. Donald Trump is a disgrace to the Oval Office.

    Donald Trump is a piece of shit human being (let alone president). How could anyone think otherwise?
    Would you hang around someone who pays to fuck pornstars while his wife is home pregnant? He's fucking scum.
     
    JSanta and zappatton2 like this.
  20. spudmunkey

    spudmunkey SS.org Regular

    Messages:
    3,143
    Likes Received:
    3,550
    Joined:
    Mar 7, 2010
    Location:
    Near San Francisco
    How timely...

    [​IMG]

    https://www.nbcsandiego.com/news/na...Has-East-Bay-Neighbors-on-Edge-510849331.html

    "'It [a swaztika in his landscaping] doesn’t represent anything,' Johnson said. 'That represents me not having to pull weeds over in that part of my yard; that’s what it represents to me.'

    "Johnson at times expressed ignorance about the symbol associated with hatred and racism. 'What is a swastika?' he asked."

    "Johnson also was asked about the swastika sticker on his motorcycle, at which point he ended the interview, telling reporters to get out of his yard."
     
    Explorer likes this.

Share This Page

  1. This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register.
    By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our use of cookies.