US Political Discussion: Trump Administration Edition (Rules in OP)

Discussion in 'Politics & Current Events' started by mongey, Mar 2, 2016.

  1. possumkiller

    possumkiller SS.org Regular

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    That is actually reasonable and agreeable. Shit just isn't as cut and dry black and white as extremists on either side want to make it out to be.

    I like to think I give people the benefit of the doubt until they open their mouth and prove me wrong.


    I've said before I was raised in a family with a lot of racism. I went to school saying the N word. Not because I was talking down to black people but because I literally thought that was a proper pronoun to address a black person with. I never sensed racism at home until I got older. I just saw them calling black people on TV the N word and thought that was proper. Why would my family lead me astray?
    Needless to say, calling black boys at school the N word resulted in a lot of ass beatings. So then I just thought black people were just naturally quick to violence and unpleasant to be around. Those ideas stuck with me and were reinforced all through school and into the army.
    When I was forced to depend on and live in intimate proximity with black people I naturally got to know them on deep levels. Suddenly the black people I knew didn't fit the ideas I developed in school and what my family culture taught me.
    No. People are just people. Most of us just want to live our lives in peace. If history and experience have taught me anything, it's that you can't just blanket whole groups of people based on some assholes.

    Even if every Trump supporter or republican is a racist everything-phobe, what do we do about it? Round them all up and put them in prisons? Make them register themselves and wear a mark? Eliminate them?
     
  2. possumkiller

    possumkiller SS.org Regular

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    You don't think people in 1936 thought they were the peak of civilization?

    I remember when, "Hey, it's the 90s." was a thing.
     
  3. Randy

    Randy Sous Chef Super Moderator

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    Which to me is splitting hairs, which is the second thing that got us where we are.

    A lot of your arguments revolve around not knowing someone's intentions and masks personal decision (like wearing a red had or a swastika) by hiding it behind that wall. If you take the argument that wearing something dripping in racist subcontext is not a guarantee of racism, then you can apply the same concept onto the rest of the discussion. Maybe you use the N word because you you're just trying to be edgy. Maybe you burned down a synagogue because you've never met a Jewish person and all you know is what you read on 4chan and you'd otherwise be one yourself if you knew better.

    Schrodinger's Racist, we can't assume anyone is racist until we've seen inside their brain clearly enough to determine if they're racist or just act racist or prefer racists. Sounds awfully hair splitty to me.

    It's also funny how you and the other guy went on a crusade to remind us that making assumptions about people is some universally unfair thing and then you use terms like "personal axe to grind" or "angry militant anti-right" (presumptive) toward people that disagree with you.

    The irony in all of this is that you're saying even if 100% of people who wear Trump hats or swastikas are racist, the physical item itself is not racist or it's existence doesn't guarantee racism. That's splitting hairs! The hair is, in reality, smaller but by scale relative to everything surrounding it, not appreciably so.

    I never implied you walk up to a person wearing a red hat and punch them in the face before you exchange the first word. Actually, I don't think anybody did. I just said if you wear it, you know what you're doing.
     
    Last edited: Jun 2, 2019
  4. Randy

    Randy Sous Chef Super Moderator

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    Nice reversal, A+

    Trump branding has emboldened and validated racists. You think it's some kind of coincidence that they show up to Charlottesville all wearing the same uniform, use the same hand symbol, etc? Strength in numbers. Having something that they can display as a wink to one another (just like gang colors) has a unifying effect.

    Nobody's talking about rounding them up and eliminating them. There's more of those assumptions you seem to hate so much. How about invalidating it as a position to be displayed in public as a strength or a rallying point? If you're a racist, you're free to think whatever you want but you can't parlay that into violence against others based on it or dictating policies counter to the majority of us that aren't or at least don't exact it's implications onto others.
     
  5. MaxOfMetal

    MaxOfMetal Likes trem wankery. Super Moderator

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    Educate when you can. Shame when it needs to be shamed. Vote when you can.

    You're not going to change everyone's mind, but we don't have to.

    Every generation gets less and less racist and more and more progressive.

    Non-violent attrition.

    I'm just not entirely on board with comparing current America to post-WWI Germany or Stalinist Russia, at least in this context.
     
  6. possumkiller

    possumkiller SS.org Regular

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    I'm obviously not a debate champion so I'm not sure what a reversal is.

    Trump supporters show up at Charlottesville wearing the same uniforms and symbols and nod and a wink. Just like gangsters. Just like Freemasons. Just like LGBTQ groups. Just like religions or state and national flags or anything else groups of people use to identify with. Did the ANTIFA people just show up wearing whatever?

    Where was the assumption? I thought it was a question.

    I never said I hate assumptions. That's just something you assumed. We survive the world around us by constantly making assumptions. If I hadn't been assuming what stunts dick head drivers were going to pull around me when I drove a semi, I would've been at fault in a lot of accidents.

    I said making assumptions about a person's character based on a hat is the same as making assumptions about people based on any other way they choose to dress or present themselves.

    Is it not possible some old codger saw a hat in their favorite color that said make America great again and decided they like it?
    The first part was the answer I was hoping for.

    The second part. Compare America to America. The point is that 80 years into the future people will be looking at 2019 the same as we look at 1936. People in 1936 were regular people like us at the peak of modern technology and civilization. When those mass genocides came to light, people were shocked that something so horrible could happen in these modern times. It kept happening on smaller scales all over the world all through these modern times and still goes on in some places. Anyway I'm rambling on and forgetting the point.

    The point is if people on both sides would quit being dicks, they would see we all have a lot in common and can get shit done much easier by working together.

    The real enemy are the wealthy elites pitting us against one another to keep us distracted from the fact that they've taken all our money and bought the world to keep us down.
     
  7. Adieu

    Adieu SS.org Regular

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    Those who fail history are doomed to repeat it

    No, seriously... the rise of nasty populism and the erosion of the checks and balances of the law suggest that's EXACTLY where we should be looking for comparisons
     
  8. MaxOfMetal

    MaxOfMetal Likes trem wankery. Super Moderator

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    Context folks. Context.

    See bolded:

    No one is being persecuted for not wearing a MAGA hat the same way that those who didn't fall in line under the Nazi or Stalin regimes were.
     
  9. MetalHex

    MetalHex SS.org Regular

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    The swastika symbol was adopted by group that identified itself as a socialist party movement, by definition, which is left wing ideology. Nothing right wing about it. Then, basically because of the whole holocaust thing, you end up with two things that are now associated with the swastika.....first being the socialist party movement, then the hatred of jews. That's two different perversions of the same symbol, now associated with the same party. It's amazing how the symbol and the word nazi is all of the sudden is now associated with right-wingers in modern times.

    If you see any "right wingers" wear this symbol, I doubt they hold any true conservative and republican ideologies, theyre just asshats. Yeah im sure you can find some right wingers who hate non whites but you will find those types among all kinds of people. When you step back look at it from a new perspective, racism is just an "ism", which is just a branch of evil.

    I have to mention on a side note, all of the anti-white rhetoric among white liberal democrats and in the rampant media would otherwise have me convinced that if anyone is racist, its the self loathing democrats who feel guilty for what certain white people have done in the past, yet disregard all of the wonderful things white people have done and are ashamed of their own white european race. Democrats seem to be the champions of pointing out racism among white right wingers and fail to see it anywhere else in anyone else. That's why leftists love to throw the words racist and nazi at them. It's their preferred weapon of choice. They feel good saying it and think it takes the most damage points. Go up to a Korean guy and call him Chinese, he will have your head on a platter. I used to work with people like this. I would see the hatred and between this Vietnamese guy and this Laosian guy where everyday they would look down and talk down to each other saying things like, "your piece of shit country wouldnt be wearing clothes if it wasnt for us". He used to say that. They were so proud of their country that they hated everyone elses country. It was like the tribalism you see among die hard sports fans, but worse.

    My point is that, if you are going to always point out racism, just remember that it is not just right wing southern whites, but everyone can be. I think liberal democrats are so apologetic and feel so guilty toward non whites, for something that their ancestors may or may not have done generations ago, and it comes off as some sort of phony sympathy. Because now they think we have to go around and fix all these supposed injustices, but dont any have any good solutions to fix them.

    Also remember that all this racism, homophobism, islamophoism, all these isms, are really just different forms of evil.

    Which actually brings me to another point: the perversion of the word racism. People associate the word racism with "hatred of other races". When by definition, it means that you think your race is superior to others. Well, some races are superior to others in different ways. By and large, African people generally are taller, stronger, faster, and more athletic. They also dont get sun-burned. In that sense you can technically say that they are "genetically superior". Which I think to be true.....actually it is true. So I guess by definition that makes me a racist. But I certainly dont hate African people at all. So, in the understanding of the popular definition, I am not a racist. Which definition is it then? It's just one of those words that leftists love to throw around, and put a new meaning to it. The same way extreme leftists try to change the literal definition of the word "facist", to try to make it officially apply only to right wingers.

    So we have the swastika, the word nazi, the word racist, and the word facist, all perverted by leftists. I wish it werent true. People who claim to be "progressives" are actually slowing things down with their bigotry.
     
  10. MaxOfMetal

    MaxOfMetal Likes trem wankery. Super Moderator

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    *sigh*

    https://www.britannica.com/story/were-the-nazis-socialists

    https://www.snopes.com/news/2017/09/05/were-nazis-socialists/

    https://www.abc.net.au/religion/nazism-socialism-and-the-falsification-of-history/10214302

    tl;dr:

    The National Socialist German Workers' Party was about as socialist as the band members of Cannibal Corpse being dead people who feast on human flesh.

    I see you're as astute a dermatologist as you are a political scientist, historian, and mathematician. Bravo.
     
    Last edited: Jun 2, 2019
  11. StevenC

    StevenC SS.org Regular

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    Citation needed.

    You'd have to be really idiotic to think there was anything left leaning about Hitler.
     
  12. MetalHex

    MetalHex SS.org Regular

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    *sigh*
    https://mises.org/library/why-nazis...3pOhcYv6YNhBkznkTRoI9FztcOdQqakzPRjSA3eammYW8

    Read the whole link too. Ive already read and heard all of the opposing talking points, that whole nazism isnt socialism is absolutely dead in the water. I see the misconception used as an argument all the time.
     
  13. StevenC

    StevenC SS.org Regular

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  14. MaxOfMetal

    MaxOfMetal Likes trem wankery. Super Moderator

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    That's not what socialism is. If you change the definition to your liking, anything can be anything else.

    Socialism, in it's most basic sense is public ownership of the means of production.

    But it's a moot point as socialist democracies, which are what is being referred to today, are different than naked socialism. Think of it as a blend of socialism and capitalism, where private ownership is allowed, but regulated [not owned] for the public good, with capital moved to cost centers like healthcare, education, infrastructure, etc. via taxation.

    Communism, in certain stages, is where the government owns the means of production.
     
  15. MetalHex

    MetalHex SS.org Regular

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    If you had read past the first sentence, you would read that,

    "I need to anticipate a possible misunderstanding concerning my thesis that socialism is totalitarian by its nature. This concerns the allegedly socialist countries run by Social Democrats, such as Sweden and the other Scandinavian countries, which are clearly not totalitarian dictatorships.

    In such cases, it is necessary to realize that along with these countries not being totalitarian, they are also not socialist. Their governing parties may espouse socialism as their philosophy and their ultimate goal, but socialism is not what they have implemented as their economic system. Their actual economic system is that of a hampered market economy, as Mises termed it. While more hampered than our own in important respects, their economic system is essentially similar to our own, in that the characteristic driving force of production and economic activity is not government decree but the initiative of private owners motivated by the prospect of private profit.

    The reason that Social Democrats do not establish socialism when they come to power, is that they are unwilling to do what would be required. The establishment of socialism as an economic system requires a massive act of theft — the means of production must be seized from their owners and turned over to the state. Such seizure is virtually certain to provoke substantial resistance on the part of the owners, resistance which can be overcome only by use of massive force.

    The Communists were and are willing to apply such force, as evidenced in Soviet Russia. Their character is that of armed robbers prepared to commit murder if that is what is necessary to carry out their robbery. The character of the Social Democrats in contrast is more like that of pickpockets, who may talk of pulling the big job someday, but who in fact are unwilling to do the killing that would be required, and so give up at the slightest sign of serious resistance.

    As for the Nazis, they generally did not have to kill in order to seize the property of Germans other than Jews. This was because, as we have seen, they established socialism by stealth, through price controls, which served to maintain the outward guise and appearance of private ownership. The private owners were thus deprived of their property without knowing it and thus felt no need to defend it by force.

    I think I have shown that socialism — actual socialism — is totalitarian by its very nature".

    Not sure why you brought democratic socialism into it because thats not what the nazis stood for or implemented.
     
  16. MaxOfMetal

    MaxOfMetal Likes trem wankery. Super Moderator

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    Again, mincing words to fit a preconceived theory. Cart before the horse.

    The Nazi Party was not socialist, as the public did not own the means of production. That's what socialism is, in definition. The author tries to use semantics, that enacting government control on economic tools, like currency, is the same as direct control and ownership, which it is not. It seems the author also forgot about how Nazi Germany was big into giving out war contracts to firms outside German control. Perhaps my mention of Oskar Schindler earlier was apt.

    It seems that you're confusing the public with government, at least Mises is, or perhaps more specifically the author of that blog post.

    But, if you're goal was to equate current notions of Democratic Socialism with the Nazis, you've done yourself a great disservice, as this piece specifically identifies them as different entities. I know words are hard, but Socialism and Democratic Socialism are vastly different.
     
  17. thraxil

    thraxil cylon

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    Don't forget, North Korea is the "Democratic People's Republic of Korea". Just a bunch of Democrats over there.
     
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  18. MetalHex

    MetalHex SS.org Regular

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    No that isnt what I was trying to do. I do know the difference.

    Why arent you addressing my point about falsely equating right wingers as racists since that what everyone here seems to do? Also I still believe nazi os the wrong term to equate them with.
     
  19. StevenC

    StevenC SS.org Regular

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    Ah, the No True Socialist fallacy.
     
  20. MaxOfMetal

    MaxOfMetal Likes trem wankery. Super Moderator

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    Because the terms "left" and "right" haven't always meant the same thing. They're terms that evolve continuously, changing with the societal norms of the time.

    Heck, they go all the way back to the French Revolution, with the "left" standing for the creation of a republic and secularism while the "right" stood for upholding the monarchy and feudal system.

    Folks on both sides of the political spectrum have the potential to be racist. Though, currently, it seems most racist organizations in this country lean right politically.

    Your earlier "definition" of racist was inaccurate. In reality it's:

    "a person who shows or feels discrimination or prejudice against people of other races, or who believes that a particular race is superior to another"

    Additionally:

    "The United States Department of Homeland Security defines right-wing extremism in the United States as "broadly divided into those groups, movements, and adherents that are primarily hate-oriented (based on hatred of particular religious, racial or ethnic groups), and those that are mainly anti-government, rejecting federal authority in favor of state or local authority, or rejecting government authority entirely. It may include groups and individuals that are dedicated to a single issue, such as opposition to abortion or immigration."

    Actual Nazis don't exist anymore, but white supremacist/nationalist groups who use Nazi imagery fall under the banner of "right wing extremism", notably for their anti-government and anti-civil rights stances. Colloquially, we just call them Nazis.

    I think you're getting caught up in the language again. The "right" doesn't just mean "republican", just as "left" doesn't just mean "democrat". There are various ideologies that fall under those brackets. It's a spectrum.
     
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