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Discussion in 'Politics & Current Events' started by mongey, Mar 2, 2016.
Sometimes I really don't know why I bother.
You're splitting hairs unnecessarily.
I used to have a Bernie Sanders sticker on my car. I used to listen to 'Brunch with Bernie' when he was an obscure congressman from an sleepy neighboring state, and I was amazed after following him for 10+ years that he was running for president and had a shot. For me, the sticker was half an endorsement of him for the job and worn out of pride for how far he'd come.
So the primary played out, there were a lot of blows traded and it was an ugly battle that left a lot of bruises on both of them and neither looked especially clean at the tail end of it. I also fully bought into the narrative that Bernie created during the primary about Hillary being bought/sold by Wall Street and all that. To that extent I fully drank the Kool Aid.
Then we get out of the primary and Bernie went on the road to endorse Hillary and it was full capitulation. And I was really bitter a few ways, one, that he was pushing so hard for someone he convinced us was so crooked and two, that it was disingenuous to try to get people to vote for him by lobbing headshots at the woman that were either untrue or will fully ignoring them to jockey for a position with her.
At that point, I decided it was time to peel the sticker off. Not because I thought Bernie was watching it happen through a pair of binoculars and it was going to effect him some way but because I thought the BRAND had been tained enough that I didn't want anyone to see my sticker and assume it was an endorsement of what his name had come to represent. I didn't want to park my car somewhere, get out of car and have someone confront me on what I personally didn't find defensible.
That's my parallel to the MAGA hat. You don't wear the hat out in public and not know the impression people get from it. Maybe if you're living under a rock but this has been the most publicly broadcast administration in history by far and the guy even posts his positions free for the public to see with no filter, no buffer. And the guys positions have been so abhorrent and so blatant, it's near impossible to interpret the guys brand any other way.
So, if you wear the MAGA in public, you have to at least consider someone will want to have a conversation about it. If you feel comfortable defending the brand, you're going to have to do a healthy amount of convincing me you're not knowingly defending a racist with racist policies, so if that's the hill you choose to die on, it's some crazy mental gymnastics to put that much effort into it and NOT have them reflect your own beliefs. Or you're just an asshole and you like chaos for the sake of chaos, so you wear things just to provoke a reaction out of people.
Anyway yes, I'll relieve you of the burden that you've spent two full days on. Yes a person can wear a MAGA hat and not be a racist. Maybe they can't read. Maybe they just like the color red. Maybe it was a gift someone and theres sentimental value. Maybe they have a dick growing out of the top of their head and it was the nearest object they could grab to hide their shame. You're absolutely right, hair officially split, thank you for holding up a mirror to our narrow-mindedness.
Uh, wasn't it started before Trump, and done to make sure the children weren't being trafficked or some shit?
Not mandatory indefinite familial separation.
I'm familiar with people who have expressed the same frustration as Orda's. Most of them went through all kinds of mental gymnastics to explain why their religious bigotry wasn't really bigotry, wanting me to agree that if they came to a bigotry in a godly way, it wasn't bigotry.
I'm pretty sure if Orda went to the effort, he'd squirm while trying to say that his overlooking the racism doesn't mean he's okay with it, but he's going to roll with it. That kind of "Good German" argument doesn't fly, but maybe he'd surprise us with something completely novel!
I'm not really expecting that in any way, shape or form, but it's a very small but distinctly non-zero infinitesimal possibility....
Yeah, that one part you responded to, your attempt to push this on a different policy, wasn't the same as Trump's deliberately punitive policy, crafted to create irreparable trauma in children. "That'll teach 'em!" Trump also has wanted his currently delusional wall to have physical feature which don't just deter, but injure.
I'm pretty sure you deliberately skipped this part, but since you quoted it, I can assure you that no president before Trump has found fine people among the genocidal Nazis.
Out of curiosity, do you have any rationale you can express about why your embrace of a racist doesn't tacitly support his racist views, actions and policies?
Anybody else getting a throbbing migraine from the politics of the day???
The Dems are a coalition of crazies with a hard-on for disruption without a second thought to consequences plus sell-outs who'll pick up any agenda for a few votes... and the Republican leadership is corrupt, of extremely dubious moral character, volatile, and blatant scofflaws at that.
What a mess
It gets frustrating for sure.
But you do what you can. Try to stay relatively informed and try to keep it to as legitimate of sources as you can, and then when the opportunity arises vote as best you can.
As long as I've been alive politics has been like this for the most part, and I don't see it changing dramatically anytime soon.
I do think the next few elections are very important though. Not that any aren't, but it just seems more so right now.
Oh well. Sit back, have a beer, and enjoy the weekend.
I know. It's not about the hat at all.
I thought it was a pretty simple concept that judging and assuming things about people based on appearance and making blanket statements about groups of people was in bad form. I thought it would be obvious since there are racially diverse and LGBTQ people hanging out here. It goes both ways and that's what a lot of this crowd still have to learn.
Sometimes people here don't really come across as liberal or left-wing as much as they just come across as angry militant anti-right. They will make angry rants all day long about right-leaning people being hateful bigots while making the exact same types of assumptions and blanket statements they are accusing them of.
Nobody seems to get the idea that it's not at all about the hat. They think making assumptions and blanket statements about people is fine as long as it's about the right kind of people. Talk about the pot calling the kettle African-American...
For me it's not splitting hairs at all. It's just fairness. I'm not right-wing anymore and don't care to defend them but I will definitely defend being fair to people. Except MetalHex. That guy is a freaking loon.
Tldr. Making assumptions and blanket statements about anyone isn't right. Being fair means you have to be fair to people you don't like as well as the ones you do like.
This conversation started because someone paralleled the red hat with the swastika. So we're to assume that it's also unfair to make assumptions of a person wearing a swastika?
Before the end of WW2, sure. Being in nazi German territory and not wearing a swastika was pretty dangerous. After the Holocaust was made public knowledge and the world taught for generations what Germany's swastika stood for? Idk, I would need to talk to someone from Finland about it. It was their national symbol before and after nazi Germany.
The chances are much more slim that someone these days would be wearing a swastika and be ignorant of its connotations. However, teenagers love to do shit just to piss people off. I knew guys in school that drew swastikas everywhere just because it made people mad.
Wasn't there some big K-POP chick apologizing for wearing a nazi swastika shirt recently? So even these days could I say with 100% certainty whether someone wearing a swastika is white supremacist or just a harmless idiot?
There are instances where the chances are so high that it is "safe to assume". Even so, that is still assuming which is the entire point.
I would assume someone wearing a swastika to be a neo-nazi.
I would assume someone wearing a red maga hat to be racist.
I would assume a white guy with a confederate flag in a black neighborhood is asking for trouble.
I would assume a black guy with his pants around his knees wearing a bunch of blue bandanas is in a gang.
I would assume the chick in full mating face paint and stripper heels with her dress pulled above her ass and below her tits is asking for trouble.
I would assume someone sitting at a red light with a blinker on is about to make a turn.
Some assumptions are "safer" to make than others but they are all assumptions irregardless.
I know a person that uses confederate flags as home decor and isn't racist.
I totally get what you guys are on about and I definitely agree that someone wearing a red maga hat at this point in history is probably racist. But that is an assumption just like any other.
I assume someone using the word "irregardless" in a debate thread post is asking for trouble.
Possumkiller makes a leap from one group (people with inherent characteristics like skin color and sexual characteristics) to people chosing to self-identify with a group repeatedly implementing prejudiced policy at best, and embracing Nazis on their race to the bottom at worst.
I made clear fact-based statements about the kind of policies with which the hat-wearers are choosing to self-identify. The choice to self identify isn't the assumption. The policies they are at least tacitly supporting are not assumptions. So... what are the assumptions?
I've been asking people who have been defending the hat as not racist to comment directly and to defend directly why they should not be identified with what they have chosen to self-identify themselves. I'm hopeful you will be the first to step up to the challenge.
So you would say that every person that waved a nazi flag in Germany was all for extermination of Jews? You don't think there is a chance that some people think Trump/Hitler genuinely did something to improve their life in some way and support that without agreeing with any other policies?
Forget about skin color. The choice to dress up like a thug is inviting assumptions.
Dressing up like a tart is inviting assumptions.
Wearing a rainbow is inviting assumptions.
Chopping your dick off is inviting assumptions.
The point you are clearly avoiding is not defending racists. The point is me assuming a red hat is racist is the exact same thing as me assuming blue bandanas and saggy pants are gangster. It's an assumption no matter how many ways you want to slice it. The same sides of a different coin.
While I would most likely be correct in assuming a red hat is racist, IT'S STILL AN ASSUMPTION.
Ignorance or apathy to one deed or deeds doesn't negate responsibility.
You can't compartmentalize like that in the real world.
I'm sure there's someone out there that's a huge Hitler fan because they love Volkswagen.
Much like cellular biology is just a theory.
They were willing to implicitly support the Final Solution in order to achieve their other, possibly unrelated goals. They went along like good Germans.
I get your logic, though. "If I don't argue against the racism, then I can get something from this power structure!" And yes, that's lending support to the racism, which is racist.
Again, do you care to get specific about how throwing your support to someone implementing racist policies, in order to get unrelated policies, isn't supporting racism?
Baggy pants, not just a gangster thing. Wearing gang colors in a way to signal gang membership or affiliation though, yeah.
I've learned from this very topic that a lot of people on the right don't understand consent to be part of sex. What assumption do you personally make in this case?
The rainbow, obviously a member or supporter of LGBTQ. I do like how you skipped the sections of this topic, along with all current discussion from the fields of medicine and psychology relating to transgenderism, and went for the visceral. You not trying to go for facts is an observation based on that evidence, not an assumption.
I've stated that tacitly supporting an exponent of racism, including by self-identifying with a racist group, is racist, in the same way I'd agree that self-identifying with gang colors and protocols shows one to be on-board with that gang. That tacit support and self-identification are the result of choices to do so.
So how is lumping all of Germany in with the Nazis any better than lumping middle eastern people in with terrorists?
I'm not going to make any excuses for other people because I don't need to. There are any number of reasons why people do what they do.
There were plenty of people wearing swastikas that didn't agree with nazi policies. There were plenty of people wearing soviet stars that didn't agree with communism. Myself and plenty of other people fought for years in the middle east and strongly disagreed with being there.
No I'm afraid you don't get my logic.
Both of you are trying to get so deep into it that you are either missing or purposefully ignoring the point I've stated several times over.
Are you wanting to try and paint me as some sort of racist red hat nazi lover? Because I don't think you can say with 100% certainty that a red hat is a racist?
I've never once defended what those things stand for or the people that choose to wear it. Yet somehow you keep ignoring that and try to act as if I am. I get the feeling that Explorer in particular has some sort of personal axe to grind.
This is exactly what I was talking about earlier. You see words that you don't like or don't agree with and automatically assume that person is the bad guy. It's almost like you're on a quest to seek out evil and expose it. "I've got one! I've got one! This guy thinks we're not not being completely fair! He's a nazi-loving Trump supporter! I've exposed him guys now get him!", is the kind of vibe I get. Like some of those anti-muslim kids in the army that were just waiting for an excuse to pull the trigger. Maybe I'm wrong. That's just what I assume from the tone of your post.
All I ever said was making blanket statements and assumptions about people or groups of people is not fair in any case.
There is no way you or anyone else can know with 100% certainty whether or not someone is racist based on a hat.
I didn't get away from hate and anger-filled right-wing extremism just to trade it for some hate and anger-filled left-wing extremism.
There's a Volkswagen in my town that has a sticker in the rear window saying "Volk-Swaggin since 1937".
Unsure if these people are stupid or nazis. Either way, certainly tasteless.
Other than being born in the Middle East not being a choice vs. deciding that, one way or another, supporting the Nazi is in you or yours' best interest?
At some point all those folks decided it was better for them to go along with it. Was it actually better? Depends.
The choice was still made though. Do I blame them? Of course not. Those were some incredibly difficult times. Some of the worst in human history.
But someone living in America in 2019? Nah. They ain't no Oskar Schindler.
That was on the first page when Googling "volk swaggin".