US Political Discussion: Biden/Harris Edition (Rules in OP)

Discussion in 'Politics & Current Events' started by mongey, Mar 2, 2016.

  1. MaxOfMetal

    MaxOfMetal Likes trem wankery. Super Moderator

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    6797A69A-95E7-455C-B132-4756FAC9490B.gif
     
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  2. thebeesknees22

    thebeesknees22 SS.org Regular

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    At the end of the day biden will do what he has to to get the debt ceiling taken care of. He doesn't have a choice tbh.

    There's really nothing he can do with Manchin and Sinema blocking everything. I think it's still 50/50 on any infrastructure bill at all passing. Manchin will probably go for the smaller bill, but I don't know about sinema. She seems to want to block anything and everything. I'm not really sure what her game is. She doesn't make clear what she wants other than to obstruct.

    At the end of the day progressives will have to give in, because they know they can't allow the US to go into default. Manchin knows that can't happen too so he'll settle on the smaller bill. Sinema though..... I dunno. She seems kinda crazy tbh.
     
  3. MaxOfMetal

    MaxOfMetal Likes trem wankery. Super Moderator

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    The smaller bill has already cleared the Senate, Manchin and Sinema are out of play in this case.
     
  4. bostjan

    bostjan MicroMetal Contributor

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    I think a few pundits were pretty loud about saying it wouldn't pass the Senate. But it did. Now there are a few loudly saying it will never pass in the house, due to some statements made by progressives that possibly are already past their expiry date. As for the competing House Bill, as far as I can tell, no one ever bothered to start writing it, so I don't see how it's a consideration. If the bill had been written before this week, I would have agreed with the pundits, but at this point, it looks like the smaller bill is fairly likely to pass the House and go on to Biden's desk. In that case, Biden would be an idiot not to sign it. If Bernie and AOC and a few others manage to write the bigger bill in the next 2-3 days, it could still derail the smaller one, but, even then, nothing's a sure thing. It'd probably be wise to piggyback the bigger bill on top of the smaller one, since the bigger one has zero chance of passing in the Senate at the moment. I think progressives have to understand that if they crash the infrastructure by holding out like they said they would, then it'll be a public relations nightmare for everyone.
     
  5. thebeesknees22

    thebeesknees22 SS.org Regular

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    ohhh i missed that news. Thanks 60-80hr work weeks. ha
     
  6. Drew

    Drew Forum MVP

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    I think there's some confusion over what's in play here, so as a quick recap;

    • When it became apparent a large infrastructure bill would not get bipartisan support in the Senate, the Democrats took a two tiered approach - pass a bipartisan "hard infrastructure" bill with broad Senate support (all Democrats, plus 18 or 19 Republicans, including McConnell), but also continue work on a larger "human infrastructure" bill they would attempt to pass via reconciliation, with 50 Democratic votes plus Harris.
    • From day one, House progressives said they would only take up the Senate bill at the same time as their "human infrastructure" bill, once that had passed the Senate.
    • Manchin and Sinema, Senate moderates, have said they won't support a $3.5T human infrastructure bill, even though they voted for the "shell" budget including up to $3.5T in spending over 10 years for human infrastructure.
    So where we are now is the Senate has passed a more traditional infrastructure bill with $550b in new spending for bridges, roads, railways, clean power, and high speed internet. The House could send it to Biden's desk by voting for it today, but ~100 or so House progressives say they'll vote it down until the Senate also passes their Build Back Better Act (which is still being negotiated) and sends them the two bills to vote for at once.

    The $550B bill is not currently being negotiated, but sitting in a sort of limbo. Biden spent the last month or so, since the hard infrastructure bill passed, trying to convince Manchin and Sinema to get on board with the $3.5T human infrastructure bill, but was unable to do so. He's now trying to get the House to instead pare the bill down, perhaps in the $1.5-2T range, which is closer to a size where (I believe - one has floated a number, the other hans't) Manchin at least has said he could support it.

    This larger human infrastructure bill is the one that's still very much in flux, while the smaller hard infrastructure bill is sort of sitting on ice at the moment. Manchin and Sinema are still in play to the degree that their tolerance for the size of the human infratructure bill will have a very direct impact on the willingness of House progressives to support the already-passed $550b bipartisan infrastructure bill.

    This REALLY depends on the progressive wing of the House Democratic coalition. If even three of them decide to draw a line in the sand and stick at $3.5T, then this bipartisan bill is going to die. And, honestly, while Biden so far has lobbied the moderates and not the progressives, I could see a few of them digging in. Sanders in particular.
     
  7. nightflameauto

    nightflameauto SS.org Regular

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  8. Drew

    Drew Forum MVP

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  9. nightflameauto

    nightflameauto SS.org Regular

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    It's kinda nice when they turn the crazy on themselves for a change.
     
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  10. Drew

    Drew Forum MVP

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    Meanwhile, Senate Democrats appear to be about to accept a compromise offer from McConnell that would raise the debt ceiling long enough to fund the government at least through December. This would allow them enough time to pass an increase as part of a reconciliation bill, which McConnell clearly would rather they do than either ask his coalition not to fillibuster a roll call vote allowing the Dems to raise it with just 50 votes, or admit that he doesn't have firm enough control of his coalition to ensure that some members won't stop the Democrats from doing this even if he tells them not to.
     
  11. Adieu

    Adieu SS.org Regular

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  12. nightflameauto

    nightflameauto SS.org Regular

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  13. tedtan

    tedtan SS.org Regular

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  14. mbardu

    mbardu SS.org Regular

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  15. bostjan

    bostjan MicroMetal Contributor

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    Seems like an appropriate time to dust off this old gem:
     
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  16. gunch

    gunch Riff Chugman

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    Things are getting worse than last year and all because the Dems are being 3 Stooges while the GOP watches. The only good thing is that you don't see That Orange Bastard in every news headline, maybe a decent 30% versus 100%

    Wishing McTurtle, Sinema and Manchin a very pee their pants and stub their toe
     
  17. spudmunkey

    spudmunkey SS.org Regular

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    Would probably have even been worse than...

    [​IMG]
     
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  18. BlackMastodon

    BlackMastodon \m/ (゚Д゚) \m/ Contributor

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    Posting a reply here since I don't want to turn the movies thread into a political conversation about America's history of failed colonization in the late 20th/early 21st centuries (apologies if this pulls you into the PC&E thread against your will, possum)

    I'm curious about the American education system. Did they have y'all read Generals Die in Bed in high school?

    Slight background: Growing up in Canada (border city, so we're pretty indoctrinated to American politics), one of my best friends wanted so badly to be in the army when he got older. His step brother was in the military and did a couple of tours in Afghanistan by 2005 (battling PTSD ever since and I remember stories about him already being a violent person before then), his older brother was in the Reserves since he was 16, he was in Cadets when he was around 13 and also planned on joining the Reserves. Me being a year younger than him and thinking "I like video games about war, I want to shoot guns!" also wanted to follow him and join the military. When I told my mom about this when I was 12, she took it very well and gently, but firmly, steered me the hell away from that idea. I thought whatever, I have a few years before I can join anyway so we'll see. Fast forward to 10th grade history and we're learning about the horrors of trench warfare in WW1 and General Die in Bed was our assigned reading.

    That book was enough for me to be rid of any desire I had to join the military, and as I got older and read more about military industrial complex and their predatory recruitment processes (targeting low-income folks with minimal edication/prospects, propoganda, etc.), I saw how messed up the whole system was. I'm glad I read it and my parents put their foot down.

    Nothing against veterans, if anything I feel sorry for them for being deceived into fighting other peoples' wars and having to pay the price. The recent video of the veteran demanding an apology from George W at some award ceremony comes to mind.
     
  19. bostjan

    bostjan MicroMetal Contributor

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    I only went to public school in the USA for one year. It was 1985. I was in kindergarten. I was bullied every day. When I asked an adult for help, the teacher labeled me a "tattle" and I was punished academically. It all built up to me being stabbed in the abdomen (by a second grader) before my parents pulled me out of school. That's certainly not everyone's US public school experience, but that's one example of what it was like. Most probably had it better, but I'm sure some had it worse.

    In private school, my education was about 10% Bible study, 10% ethics and worldviews (based on religious doctrine), and the remainder was, seemingly, whatever was the minimum required to give us a diploma after 12-13 years. We were behind the public school system in things like mathematics and science. I had a really good English teacher in 12th grade. Before that, our English teachers spent most of the time in class teaching us basic grammar like what is a gerund, what is the difference between simple past tense and past perfect tense, and stuff like that. That's not to say it was detailed, either, since a bunch of loud students in the class slowed the lesson plans down to basically a standstill. So, we essentially had one year of actual reading literature, and that was stuff like "Julias Ceasar" by Shakespeare (the play) and excerpts from classics like "Moby Dick" and "The Pearl." One kid in my graduating class was functionally illiterate, even, and still graduated. I'm not sure exactly what the situation was like in public schools, but there was a statistic in Detroit (that's where I lived when I was in primary school) for how many high school graduates were illiterate, and the number was greater than 10% every year.

    When you see Jay Leno or whoever walking down the streets of New York or Los Angeles stopping completely random people and asking them who the Vice President of the USA is and they clearly have no idea, I'm sure that's real. I'm also sure that there are quite a few people who are less entertaining, but I don't think anyone would be shocked to hear that one in three Americans don't know the governor of the state they live in, nor that half of all Americans can't find Afghanistan on a map, despite the longest war in American history taking place there up until this very year.

    Interesting. When I was around 12, I also wanted to join JROTC or something and be ready to fight for my country. Then, a year later, my eldest cousin (who was much much older than me and fought in Korea) had MPs arrest him at his home, beat him up, and drag him down to Kentucky and thrown in jail for desertion. My cousin had his discharge papers in his house, but was never allowed to present them to the MPs. He was also visibly old enough at the time that anyone with half a brain should have had one look at him and realized that he was not recently active duty or looked at their paperwork long enough to have realized that the Korean conflict happened decades earlier. My dad was able to drive down to Kentucky and get him out of jail with his discharge papers, but, IDK, the whole thing left enough of an impression on me that I figured out right away that a) the military is kind of fucked up and b) no one I knew who had been in the military ever talked about when they were in the military, so the military might be way more fucked up than I had previously ever considered. Now, in retrospect, I firmly believe I was correct. You've got too many people who had violent tendencies and nothing else to do but join up after high school. Sure, most of those guys are probably the sharpest, most talented and skilled guys, but it doesn't matter, because all it takes is one person to piss in the punchbowl to ruin the party, and I'm convinced that every unit has at least one punchpisser.

    I've read a few books about WWI and never heard of this book until now.

    Ever heard of Smedley Butler? The guy won not one, but two Congressional Medals of Honor. He fought in WWI, the Mexican Revolution, the US-Philipine War, and the Banana Wars. Basically, he fought in WWI and all of the wars before that the USA was involved in that no one learns about in the US public school system, (assuming they even learn about WWI). After WWI, he continued his military career, and, at one point, was court-martialed for bad-mouthing Mussolini, which forced him into retirement. Once he was free from military employment, he become the most outspoken individual against the military and the US government's war mongering. He exposed a plot by a far-right group to overthrow the US government (sound familiar?), which the media claimed was completely made up. The US government later confirmed it was all true. He wrote a book explaining the US government's nefarious reasons and poor behaviour of the Banana Wars. Shortly after his book was published, he suddenly fell ill, complaining of stomach pain, and died at 58 as the most decorated soldier in US history (at the time).

    His book exposed that the US military was involved in war for profit, as simple as that. Now, in 2021, we know beyond any reasonable level of doubt that the Banana Wars were wars for profit. But, prior to the Vietnam War, they were generally thought of as necessary. Of course the profit is not going at all to the soldiers risking their lives and limbs every minute of the war, the profits are made by big businesses. In the Banana Wars, it was Chiquita and Dole (no joke there, they were seriously the companies who profited and even took over several governments directly) and in the Iraq War, we have very strong reasons to suspect that Blackwater and Haliburton were profiteering from the conflict. And we all know that the information is pretty much all out there, and there ought to be tons of outrage over it, but I think we've gotten to the point now where we're so desensitized to it that simply no one cares.
     
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