US Political Discussion: Biden/Harris Edition (Rules in OP)

Discussion in 'Politics & Current Events' started by mongey, Mar 2, 2016.

  1. TedEH

    TedEH Cromulent

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    I can get the appeal of someone like Crowder. It's very easy to go down the rabbit hole of vaguely conservative "influencers". Guys like him, like Jordan Peterson, maybe you could include Ben Shapiro, etc., your standard "intellectual dark web" types -> they are very good at debate, at being convincing, about CRUSHING their opponents with FACTS and LOGIC in ways that feel good if you happen to fall on their side of a particular subject. A big part of their appeal is that they do the whole "hitting close to home thing", but also they tend to be technically right about at least some things, sometimes - or at the very least can semantically present an argument to sound correct even if it's only a valid view in certain contexts for framings.

    Edit: In other words, they're good at debate and conversation in all the ways I am not, hah.
     
    Last edited: Apr 24, 2021
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  2. USMarine75

    USMarine75 The man who is tired of the anus is tired of life Contributor

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    Exactly.

    Ben Shapiro is incredibly skilled at debating. He's actually held up as the example of how you dont have to be right to win debates (winning an argument has very little to do with having the "correct opinion").

    The problem is people get caught up in who won instead of who was right.
     
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  3. TedEH

    TedEH Cromulent

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    I don't know that people like that don't actually believe actually believe the things they say, but it's hard to tell the difference. Are they playing a game, or do they really believe their talking points? I don't know. I get the impression that someone like Jordan Peterson for example probably genuinely believes at least some of the things he says, but he seems to operate in his own little world of abstractions where anything can represent anything else. And it's not like these people are stupid - far from it - I think they're incredibly smart people who have just managed to frame their worlds in particular ways and have gotten very practiced at defending that framing.

    Edit: When I say I don't think they're stupid, I'm talking about Peterson and Crowder. Trump and Carlson on the other hand, I genuinely think are stupid. Unfortunately, one can be stupid but convincing at the same time.
     
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  4. Xaios

    Xaios Foolish Mortal

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    I am entirely aware of what a massively reprehensible shithead Steven Crowder is, so when I say that you managed to come across as a bigger dick than someone who professes to be a fan of Crowder's, I want you to grasp my full meaning.
     
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  5. USMarine75

    USMarine75 The man who is tired of the anus is tired of life Contributor

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    Can I get that in a plaque for my wall?

    :lol:
     
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  6. Drew

    Drew Forum MVP

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    Still pretty big, and I'm on a 29" iMac. :lol:

    Maybe try signing in from a normal computer and see what they look like. We used to have an auto-resize script running here, but I think it went away when the new forum software was installed.
     
  7. Drew

    Drew Forum MVP

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    This is an extremely complex question, to be fair. I do think it's a matter of degrees.

    To start, I think we need to be fair and note that there's a difference between Fox News, their genuine news reporting, and Fox opinion shows like Tucker Carlson and Sean Hannity and Laura Ingraham. I'll get to Fox News with the rest of the news media, but these shows are not news programs, they're editorial programming and hard right prophaganda with a very specific agenda to sell. The problem is, much of conservative America either doesn't get this or doesn't care, and takes Tucker Carlson at face value as a trusted news source. Tucker Carlson has all the integrity of a used car salesman. That's a problem.

    When you get out of that to actual news programming... I think Fox News for the most part is factually accurate (not for nothing, they were the first network to call the election against Trump, although that's been sort of a new thing since they were also famously the network that called Florida for Bush in 2000 and were responsible for the narrative being Gore had lost and was challenging the result. I think this has been an evolving thing for them). Where I'm less comfortable with them though is there's some partisan filtering on what they will cover. The news programming was less guilty about this than Ingraham and Carlson, but if you'll remember when various members of the police were testifying to Congress about the January 6th insurgency, pretty much every media company in America was covering their testimony about how this was premeditated, the police had advanced intel but were asked to stand down, rioters were armed and were specifically looking for Pelosi and Pence, etc etc etc... and Fox was up in arms about Dr. Seuss being "cancelled" because the Seuss family decided of their own volition to stop publishing four books that contained cartoons that, to be fair, were pretty fucking racist.

    I'm not saying there isn't some filtering elsewhere in the media, but for exmple, when Trump and Fox were trying to drum up a scandal around Hunter Biden, Fox was running it as top news, and while CNN wasn't, they also weren't entirely ignoring the story. I think there's a little more newsroom control on the right than elsewhere.

    As far as "mainstream media" being left-leaning... that's sort of complex and there's two ways I can see that they could be accused of being left-leaning:

    1) mainstream media has a specific liberal agenda, and exerts significant newsroom control over which stories they run and how they present them.
    2) mainstream media is primarily run, and staffed, by relatively well off upper-middle and upper-class Americans living in large coastal cities, skews heavily white, and a lot of the "editorial" aspects of what stories should be covered and how they should be covered are informed by thesew implicit biases.

    I don't think 1 is happening in any meaningful degree, at least in network news, outside of editorial/opinion programming (see: Rachael Maddow). If nothing else, look at The Washington Post's coverage of Amazon, which is rather unflinching and its not like Bezos doesn't have every reason to want flattering coverage coming out of their newsroom, you know?

    Two, I think, is much closer to the heart of the matter. The "mainstream media" doesn't have a liberal agenda, they don't create faux stories to drum up partisan outrage, they don't lie to you to score political points... but they DO tend to report on stories that white upper middle class urban people will care about, which imparts some subtle bias in their coverage. For the most part conservative pearl-clutching about the "liberal mainstream media" is a combination of sour grapes and self-justification for their own explicitly partisan alternatives (part of Fox's reason for existing is predicated on the "mainstream" media really being far-left so they're a necessary counterbalance), but I think there's some subtle structural stuff in play here that in all likelihood is entirely unconscious.

    It's also kind of an interesting framework to think about the "fiscally conservative/socially liberal" thing, which I'd argue "fiscally conservative" has become completely meaningless these days, and the fact that the "establishment" left has become a lot more business-friendly in the last couple decades. I'd say that was more the media's doing than the Democratic party, and in turn it can be traced to the media's generally non-random socioeconomic makeup.

    But, wrapping all of this up... I think the right wing media is more overtly partisan than everyone else, both in their heavy reliance on editorial content over their news desk, and what seems to be a little more control over the newsroom (though there are signs of life there), whereas the "mainstream" media seems to be less bound in this way... but I think there are also some structural biases in the makeup of network media newsrooms that do give it a subtly left-leaning focus.

    This is a pretty good and related read, incidentally:

    https://fivethirtyeight.com/feature...out-political-reporting-while-covering-trump/
     
  8. Randy

    Randy The Pusterience™ Super Moderator

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    Resizing scripting is different. It's basically scale to fit width, and only resizes if it's significantly above a certain size. There's a sweet spot where the images are too small to be resized but somehow bigger than the resized images.
     
    Last edited: Apr 25, 2021
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  9. Wuuthrad

    Wuuthrad SS.org Regular

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    Well I guess size does matter! :lol:

    I can't be bothered to use my iMac surfing online (try to keep it music production only, and use iPhone for forums.)

    Anyway, thanks for the heads up! Ignoring me is always an option too. It wouldn’t bother me in the slightest should anyone choose to do so! I can still read as much as I like regardless...

    :cheers:
     
  10. Jonathan20022

    Jonathan20022 Engineer

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    This is a pretty unfair way to guide the conversation, like Drew pointed out if bribery for misleading positive reviews are still prevalent, then they're still problematic. No one is making the connection here that the popular figures tied to Gamer Gate deserved the public hate mob due to their problematic transactions with individuals that can make or break public perception of your product.

    No one's downplaying it, no one deserves death/rape threats. Especially because the fucks who go around sending people those messages know they can do it with little repercussions, and all the effectiveness of mentally destroying their target. And that's my point, you're bringing up horrible actions absolutely no one downplayed or even accepted as an appropriate response to the issues presented by GamerGate, who are you even talking to that did that?

    Yet his conclusion was to approach news with a healthy amount of skepticism, not take everything from certain outlets at face value. You're arguing that people are enticed to join movements recruited from newly politicized sectors of their lives, to then become complete drones who react to headlines then parrot them?

    Yeah unfortunately there's a large group of society that is right wing, believes some of the stuff you posted and will take it at face value. Is that a shock to anyone? They were always going to do that, but there's a great place to focus your distaste for that, the reporting entities making those headlines and feeding the extremism in the first place. I don't see your link that someone realizes that gaming industry reporting is inherently corrupt, therefore the logical path those people walk is slowly more into QAnon conspiracy bullshit? I don't want to diminish you if you personally know someone who went down that road, but you need to approach your messaging a tad bit more charitably than that.

    You can do it without leading the conversation with a carrot on a stick hoping the horse is hungry, this is someone you've apparently had discourse with before. Should be blatantly obvious when you're in a conversation with a conspiracy nut?
     
  11. Wuuthrad

    Wuuthrad SS.org Regular

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    Hmm... political memes vs. wall of text off topic arguments about...??? WTF are you guys on about anyway? lol
     
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  12. thraxil

    thraxil cylon

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    This was an excellent summary overall. I just want to add that to much of the world, the US mainstream media (and the Democratic party, really) is arguably more center-right than left-leaning. It tends to be extremely supportive of large corporate interests and, as Drew points out, upper middle class white viewpoints. The NYT and BBC were both instrumental in manufacturing consent for the US and UK invading Iraq. The fact that it's considered left-leaning speaks more to how far the US right wing and Fox News have shifted the Overton window than to their biases.
     
  13. Dineley

    Dineley SS.org Regular

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    Totally agree with this. I remember all US media seemed fully bought in on Iraq like the Daily Show was constantly roasting CNN and MSNBC for shilling for the Bush admin.
     
  14. TedEH

    TedEH Cromulent

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    I mean, the phrasing is a bit exaggerated, but are you arguing that this doesn't happen? 'Cause it does. Do you not see people parroting off "make America great again?" "Where we go one we go all?" "It's about ethics in games journalism"? "Facts don't care about your feelings" and "go clean your room"?

    You mean get mad at people like Crowder and Carlson, like I've been saying the whole time? Yeah, I'm on board with that.

    The link is that the whole thing was a dumb played out culture war thing, just like qanon is. In both cases, there's a re-framing of which details are important in the conversation, a stated strong desire to find "the truth", and a lot of otherwise probably-well-meaning people taking part in something the ends up ultimately being destructive (and sometimes denying or downplaying that anything negative happened at all, cause "that's totally not the point, man").

    Lets take Ordacleaphobia out of the context of anything I'm saying, because you're right - it's generally unfair to point anything I'm saying at him. If he's more politically aware now, regardless of how he got there, then cool. All good. End of that part of the conversation.

    That being said - I see a parallel between GamerGate and QAnon:

    I'm not convinced that the GG movement came out of want to make journalism better, I fully believe that (at the very least the more aggressive parts of it) were largely motivated by the apparent threat to the validity of the "gamer identity" -> as threatened by feminism/lgbt, by left-leaning media like Kotaku, as threatened by examinations like Sarkesians.

    And the parallel:

    I think that qanon/capital riots are largely motivated by a threat to their "patriotic identity" -> as threatened by feminism/lgbt, by left-leaning media of which you can take your pick since it's supposedly all of them, as threatened by examinations like you'd see in "liberal colleges", etc.
     
  15. Drew

    Drew Forum MVP

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    But you also occasionally write interesting posts! :lol: I'll just continue to scroll past and ignore the memes, I guess. By the way, thanks, @Randy for the color.

    Since my name got pulled into this... Let me just make it explicitly clear that just because I think it's problematic, doesn't mean I support the reaction. I think Ted's basically right here, it's problematic, but there's a ton of ways to handle problematic situations that fall short of rape and death threats, and while I fully concede that this wasn't the universal reaction to GamerGate, I do think it's undeniable that misogyny was pretty widespread in a lot of the responses. Just because it didn't often go as far as the more extreme rape/death threats, doesn't mean it was at all appropriate.

    To this I'd expand on and note that one of the most pervasive forms of misogyny coming out of the fact was the implicit belief that no "real" gamer had an X chromosome, so "gamer identity" first and foremost meant you were a dude.

    @thraxil - zero argument. I only didn't go down that road because, well, one I think there's enough fertile material to talk about alleged "liberal bias" in media without even taking that step back to the global perspective, and two, well... Just because the Democratic party might be center-right if it were dropped into Brussels, doesn't automatically mean there's something wrong with America - there's a lot of ways we differ from a lot of the rest of the world, some of them arguably bad, but some of them arguably good. I'm not sure just how "liberal" an American liberal is is something worth getting that worked up about, because - and let me be clear, I'm not arguing this - you could just as easily argue that the rest of the world's "liberal" positions are off the chats fucking stark raving mad zealots. :lol: Weight political orientation by GDP rather than land mass or number of countries or something, and there even begins to be a little bit too that. :lol: I'm being a bit flip here, but I do think it's not fair to assume that American liberals SHOULD share exactly the same policy positions as Norwegian ones.
     
    Last edited: Apr 26, 2021
  16. Ordacleaphobia

    Ordacleaphobia Shameless Contrarian

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    Generally speaking, I agree with this. I don't really think your outlined 'option 1' is generally the primary factor contributing to the perceived spin on network news. I generally don't think there many truly bad actors in this sphere period honestly- just a lot of people thinking they're doing the right thing and either disagreeing with each other over what the right thing is, or on how to accomplish it.

    It becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy though where if I have similar priorities and ideals to those reflected on a specific network, and I happened to want to work in a newsroom, that's likely the program I'm going to try and get involved with- further cementing the direction of said network. Mostly unconscious, yes- but still pushes the programming over time one direction or the other.

    I do also agree that media on the right side of the isle tends to be more reactionary, likely due to the aforementioned heavier reliance on editorial programming.

    It's all kind of a mess, and the 'party lines' these days seem to be a bit more esoteric when it comes to the actual issues. Even social issues are a bit more blurred than they were in decades prior.

    In the same way that the left has started to court the financial sector, the right has also moved a lot on social issues. So while I wouldn't argue that the label is completely meaningless, the lines definitely are starting to blur. Like I mentioned before, I test exactly in the middle of the left/right on the compass, despite the whole political atmosphere making me feel like I belong on the right. Kind of just feels like genre arguments.

    Trying my hardest to drop this topic but in fairness, it's tough to really know someone's true colors if you only know them through a messageboard. I could believe some really crazy shit and just keep it under wraps until I decide today is the day I'm going to let SSO know about the pizza hut cabal that sauces their pies with child blood to retain their youth and prolong their mystical powers.

    I think this might be one of the factors in why we just totally missed each other on this topic.
    I can't speak for the q / capital guys because I've never really run in those circles or really paid enough attention to them to suss out what's going through their minds, but the "gamer identity" thing was more about that specific phrase than it was about the actual 'identity'.

    That whole thing happened once the conflicts of interest were exposed. Then, that big mailing list I mentioned a while back, got together and decided that to discredit all of these buttmad gamerbois, who to be fair were for sure taking the whole thing too seriously, they were all going to publish an article about how the gamer identity was dead, and how it was 'gamers' themselves that managed to kill it through some pretty vague, generalized character assassination. Then they did. I don't remember which publications were involved, but I know it was quite a few outlets that all published essentially the same article on the same day all making the same point mostly even using the same verbage.

    And that was where the upset came from- not from the fact that 'gamers are over,' from the fact that these people decided to huddle up and discredit their accusers rather than 'face the music,' and I know, lol; the whole thing was stupid- I even felt silly just typing that. Why they didn't just say "Yeah, we slipped up. We try not to do that. We'll try harder in the future. Thanks." I'll never know, the whole thing would have blown over. I can only assume the only reason why GG snowballed so hard was because both sides were too stubborn to cave because yeah; the stakes were....so low.

    But- I can see how, through the lens of somebody that wasn't 'in the trenches,' the takeaway could easily be that these people were mad because of the attack on their identity; especially because that played well into the previous narrative about how GG was supposedly about keeping women and other marginalized groups out of gaming.
     
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  17. Drew

    Drew Forum MVP

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    To be fair, I was thinking even more simply than that.

    "Fiscally conservative but socially liberal" means you're cool with gay people getting married, but want a balanced budget? Show me a single conservative who's made an honest attempt to balance the budget in the last 100 years. :rofl:

    Conservative fiscal policies these days are mostly "we should cut taxes and tax cuts will pay for themselves" which weirdly never happens, and is kind of funny to keep in mind with the right's fondness for arguing that we need to think of the government's budget like a house budget whenever it comes time to evaluate a spending proposal. What, and the fastest way to balance my household budget is to ask my boss for a pay cut? :lol:

    If we want to try to call it something else, like, saying someone is for liberal social policies and a balanced budget sure, but the only presidents in recent memory who have either balanced a budget or reduced deficits are all Democrats, so I don't trust conservatives with the economy either. :lol:
     
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  18. TedEH

    TedEH Cromulent

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    Of all the things we kinda don't see eye to eye about, I definitely relate to this one at times. :lol:

    I remember reading this article, or at least some variation of the article, and in a vacuum I remember it being a great article - because I kinda agree with the premise, that the gamer identity was/is dying and that it's a good thing. I should go back and find it again, maybe I'd see it differently today than I did then.

    I'm a bit curious what you mean by things like this, because you keep phrasing things as if to suggest you were "in the trenches", whatever that means.

    At the same time, we could argue about it forever but I don't think either of us will change our perspective, and we've each made our points clearly enough - I was ready to nitpick things on the GG wiki, about the Gamers-are-dead articles, about the premise of the whole thing, but at the end of the day it's dumb he-said she-said bickering at this point. If at the end of the day, you're more politically aware, then all the power to you, as they say.
     
  19. bostjan

    bostjan MicroMetal Contributor

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    It used to be that the democrats and the republicans were not really that different from one another. Now we're at a point where the democrats represent a certain set of values and the republicans, essentially, represent the opposition to that set of values.

    I actually really like people like Shapiro and Crowder for what they do, insomuch as they represent a face of conservativism that wants to open a dialogue. Since the modern conservative movement is essentially just the movement of questioning mainstream ideas, I think that we need at least a handful of people like them to keep things in check. That being said, I certainly do not agree with either of them on every issue, nor do I disagree with them on every issue. I'd probably enjoy debating with Crowder, at least a little bit. Shapiro, on the other hand, well, I'd much rather debate him in writing than in person, since he can be a bit of a jerk, and I'm not sure if I'd trigger him somehow.

    Anyway, if we argue with people about what's best for the country, the exercise helps us understand the nuances of what we actually want versus what we can actually accomplish, which is pretty important. You want to be able to defend your ideas, and, if those ideas never come under attack, they tend to slowly drift away from sanity. I know for a fact that there are plenty of people with absolutely insane ideas on both ends of the political spectrum. For four years, one of them was our chief! But now that things are back to "normal", it'll be time for people like Shapiro and Crowder to do their thing and make sure Biden's ideas get criticized when necessary.
     
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  20. Jonathan20022

    Jonathan20022 Engineer

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    Right, and I think I represented your position just as you outlined it. My point is that there isn't a single participating person in this discussion that thinks rape and death threats are an appropriate response to neither this or anything ever. I thought it was problematic that he was cornering Ordacleaphobia in his back and forth as if he was trying to deny those things happened, or that the individuals involved somehow deserved it? That's where their discussion felt like it was going.

    To put it into perspective, that is still very much prevalent. Girls still receive negativity to this day in the gaming sphere that's pretty indefensible.

    I think Drew and Ordacleaphobia said all there needs left to be said about the GG topic. Wanting to drop the topic I will too, we're all on the same page as far as I can see.

    I'm still learning quite a bit about politics as a whole, but from the discussions I've been listening to and absorbing from. The rise of people basically being socially liberal and financially conservative (in the Twitch/Youtube spheres) seems to be a need to detach themselves from what seems to be a massive socialist movement growing there.
     

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