US Political Discussion: Biden/Harris Edition (Rules in OP)

Discussion in 'Politics & Current Events' started by mongey, Mar 2, 2016.

  1. mmr007

    mmr007 SS.org Regular

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    Kindly wonder no more......asked and answered. And the answer isn't pretty.

    You know they always say hate the sin...not the sinner but I find that so hard to adhere to now. Trumpism has possibly revealed to me that some people just aren't worth liking just because of their politics and maybe their particular faults (which we all have faults) are irredeemable.

    Just reflecting on how modern day republicans...thanks to Trump saying its ok to show your true colors...enjoy cruelty...they enjoy kicking sand in others faces to mask their own insecurities...OWNING libs....wtf does that even mean? Why is it a goal to make a fellow human feel bad about who and what they are as a person....crushing their identity?

    In the past four years we have seen (among a billion other injuries to our country I won't go into)....

    The caging of children? As a policy? How awful it must be to be a child seperated COMPLETELY from your parent and vice versa..in a strange country and have no idea if you will ever see your parent again.

    Making fun of a war hero? By someone who avoided the draft five times? Hypocrisy? And later mocks dead soldiers as suckers and losers and the republican party and its base can't confront its own cruelty it displays with that attitude? Mocking Gold Star families in the same way you used to troll Rosie O'Donnell?

    Making fun of physically disabled? I'm not demading perfect political correctness (when I was young I laughed at Helen Keller jokes) but to not use cleverness but instead just mock the actual physical condition of the person as the sole basis for an applause line from a crowd?

    Constantly making us afraid an "other" would move into our neighborhood? Nonstop fear mongering of OTHER Americans! Talking about people of color moving into a neighborhood the same way you used to warn about alligators in the sewers?! The only thing moving into a neighborhood that should cause alarm is, ironically, someone wearing a MAGA cap.

    Our society really seems to have broken down...very little civility. But it isn't Trump's fault. He merely exposed the fault lines. He stood up and told racist misongynistic jokes and instead of walking out of the club, half of America stayed for the entire show, but tickets for night two and then went outside and beat the shit outta everyone who didn't get it.

    And on top of ALL THAT.....policies that don't even work and only further divide our within our nation...and divide us from the rest of the world. Ted Cruz applauds us leaving the Paris Climate Accords under Trump and laments us returning under Biden stating he (Cruz) cares more about Pittsburgh than Paris.....fuck you....you don't even care about Texas you oaf....you left them freezing to death with $16,000 electric bills while your republican cohorts echoed the same saying Texans would rather freeze than let a fellow American tell them how to winterize their grid....

    Republicans (trumpites same thing now) are the only ones who read "Lord of the Flies" and said "oh look...an instruction manuel"
     
  2. MaxOfMetal

    MaxOfMetal Likes trem wankery. Super Moderator

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    :rofl:
     
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  3. USMarine75

    USMarine75 The man who is tired of the anus is tired of life Contributor

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    Republicans and their cancel culture. :lol:
     
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  4. Wuuthrad

    Wuuthrad SS.org Regular

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  5. mbardu

    mbardu SS.org Regular

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    Literally, and unironically - this is Republican party leadership.
    They would 100% decrease the wages of their constituents at every turn if left with the opportunity.
     
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  6. mmr007

    mmr007 SS.org Regular

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  7. Wuuthrad

    Wuuthrad SS.org Regular

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    GOP is actively working to suppress voting. Nothing new here!

     
  8. Thaeon

    Thaeon Cosmic Question Asker

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    They wouldn't just reduce them. They'd undo the Legislation for minimum wage and let people pay whatever they want to pay based on the unregulated market. And they actually think this is a good idea that will work...
     
  9. Drew

    Drew Forum MVP

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    Well, the point of the "no true Scotsman" fallacy is that it's subconscious, rather than an intentional rhetorical strategy of argument. Or, I mean, I guess it could be done intentionally, but it doesn't HAVE to be done intentionally to still be a perfect example of the fallacy.

    It's just a method of filtering input data for decision making. We all do it (filter, not the scotsman fallacy), either consciously or unconsciously, and given the infinite amount of data in the world, we pretty much HAVE to in order to maker decisions. That filtering becomes problemtic, though, when it stops being used to narrow down the universe to the most pertinent data to base decisions on, and becomes a way of eliminating all but supporting data.

    At the end of the day this is just a form of confirmation bias, tuning out sources that disagree with your views and relying on sources that support the conclusions you either want to, or already have, made... it's just a very overt way of providing reasons for that filter.
     
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  10. Drew

    Drew Forum MVP

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    Neither here nor there, and I'd definitely not advocate this... but I've wondered for a while now if a "minimum wage" law has a distorting impact on the market, not keeping wages higher than they would be in a market, but keeping them arbitrarily low by removing negotiation from the equation when hiring so called "unskilled" positions.

    The federal minimum wage is $7.75 - if you worked in a state without a higher state minimum wage, and applied for a job that you knew was minimum wage, how many people would try to negotiate their wage in that scenario? And how many who did, would actually get hired at all, much less at the higher rate? I kind of wonder if corporate interests actually benefit from a federal minimum wage, despite all their protestations to the contrary.

    Indexed to productivity growth, the minimum wage would have bee something like $32 today, which actually WOULD be a comfortable living wage, about $64k for a wage earner working 40 hours a week, and a 250-day/50 week business calendar a year. Anyone making less than that today has a right to feel like economic growth is passing them by.
     
  11. MaxOfMetal

    MaxOfMetal Likes trem wankery. Super Moderator

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    The problem is, there will always be folks who need that absolute minimum, or think they do, and would undercut those looking to negotiate for a higher wage.

    Hiring unskilled is more about finding bodies, bodies that will show up when scheduled and won't be so bad they cost more than they're perceived to be worth. It doesn't matter if you're the best box flipper in the world, if there are a dozen guys willing to make less so they get the position, they will.
     
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  12. Drew

    Drew Forum MVP

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    I'm honestly not sure, and that's the main reason I'd never want to test this in real life. My gut tells me how this would play out would be HIGHLY sensitive to the economic cycle, and the, let's call it marginal effective minimum wage, or the lowest wage offered and accepted by a worker a that point in time, would plummet during recessions, when lots of workers were competing for few jobs, and spike during periods of tight labor markets, when lots of companies were competing for a very tight labor pool.

    Totally thinking out loud here, btw, but in that framework, a minimum wage seems like it's more likely to stabilize the lower end of the labor market, where workers tend to be less specialized and accordingly labor tends to be a lot more fluid in responding to demand, and in turn having a minimum wage at all probably does a lot to help businesses plan for labor needs, not by putting a floor on how low they can offer (or, only in part by that), but also by helping depress volatility to the upside, too, to a certain extent.

    Either way, $7.75 is an insult.
     
  13. nightflameauto

    nightflameauto SS.org Regular

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    To Drew's point, in our area the labor market is fairly tight already, and we have Amazon and Schwans planning on building huge facilities here in the coming years. Our legislated minimum wage is $9.10/hour. But, since the Amazon announcement, a lot of places are starting people at $15/hour because that's the pay Amazon is offering for new applicants in the warehouse. Where I work bumped everybody's wage in order to make our starting wage in the plant $15 so that we can retain our employees.

    That said, we've had times where large employers closed where minimums dropped right back to the legal limit. When Gateway left Sioux Falls, there was a HUGE pool of workers looking for jobs at all levels. I think without that minimum wage on the books, we'd have probably seen starting pay drop down to near nothing just because businesses could get by with it. I'm not sure exactly how low it would be, but there's zero doubt in my mind it would have been below what the minimum was on the books at the time.
     
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  14. Thaeon

    Thaeon Cosmic Question Asker

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    Most won't because they're looking for a minimum wage job out of need. Often desperation. If you're an adult and making minimum wage, you're there because you're not in a place where you can afford to be picky and lose an opportunity. Anything is better than nothing at all. No one is negotiating there. Cocky teens who live with their parents might. But the reality is, the margins on those jobs are so thin that even a minor increase is going to put you near the cap of an entry level position. Again, I have to wonder if a lot of this is by design. We seem to be slowly purging the idea of negotiation from the culture. At least at the consumer level, and its becoming a thing executives do in board rooms exclusively. Outside of a courtroom anyway. But we're still only seeing people with power being given the opportunity to exercise the skill. Its been my observation, that we're seeking the efficiency of the assembly line in all areas of life. Including quality of life. But that's not a quality life. A thing that seems more and more guaranteed to those with money and power, at the expense of those without either.
     
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  15. bostjan

    bostjan MicroMetal Contributor

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    My first paycheck-type job paid me about twice what the minimum wage was at the time. Adjustied for inflation, and based on overtime etc., it paid me the same or slightly more than my current salaried job pays. That's not progress, yet my current job requires an MS and 10ish years of job experience etc.

    Any time I took a job at minimum wage, I had negotiated ways to make more very quickly. Still, that first unskilled job I had while I was in high school was the only unskilled job I've ever had and it paid very well. I even had a job once that started at minimum wage (but pay rates very quickly increased with seniority) that required all sorts of tools and qualifications and even had a high rate of on-the-job deaths from accidents, and people with the qualifications were lined up for months to work there.

    I don't understand economics in the job market. It seems like there are all kinds of crazy people willing to do pretty much anything for pretty much any pay. Often times, I've seen employers break the rules and not even worry that much about it, because the penalties for getting caught were cheaper than following the rules anyway.

    Will increasing the minimum wage drive up inflation? Probably not, but it could affect certain costs of certain goods and services for sure, which might give a strong impression of inflation. Maybe the minimum wage shouldn't just be a stupid number, but instead, a calculation based on cost of living. Like, whatever the cost of living is in the area, the minimum wage should be 2x that or whatever, based off of a 40 hour workweek, but then you'd still have your rule benders and breakers and ultimately nothing much would change.
     
  16. sleewell

    sleewell SS.org Regular

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    i honestly don't care about the minimum wage at all. kinda seems like a lower priority / distraction issue tbh. i started working at 14 and i don't think i have ever made min wage. i drive past a mcdonalds everyday that is advertising 11.5 an hour on their sign, i think aldi starts out at 14 or 15 an hour for entry level positions. every single job should not be meant to support a family or meant to be where you stay forever.
     
  17. Mathemagician

    Mathemagician SS.org Regular

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    It has always been intentional. Look up “starving the beast”. It’s essentially about purposefully defunding programs so that they cannot work well, can’t support demand and otherwise look “bad”. Then the elected officials use it as justification to privatize that function and who gets the contract but companies that donate to their campaigns, and their friends companies of which they are invested. Then another previously taxpayer funded public service becomes and expensive POS you still have to pay for.

    And the promised “tax break”? You used to only pay about $6/yr in taxes for that service. 1) You didn’t get the full $6 back & 2) WTF are going to do with that $6 that’s better than funding hot meals for students/filling potholes on major roads/winterizing your power grid so people don’t suffer?

    I’ve been mentioning that anything below a $20 minimum wage is absolute trash in terms of offering a standard of living forever and a day.

    Lots of people still want to argue about how in some podunk town of 1,000 that $20 is “crazy”.

    If your $8 burger becomes $12 then that’s fine. Because it used to cost over 1 hours worth of labor, and now costs 0.8 hours worth of labor. It’s a net positive! The company makes more and the employee keeps more after eating lunch.

    I mean are Chase Bank, Wells Fargo, etc not around? Because the banks all start at $20/hr for the lowest bank teller job. And they aren’t going under.

    A significant number of people have a misunderstanding of economics to the point where they truly believe that wages going up push prices higher.

    But as the US has shown prices go up no matter what.

    Instead of realizing a $15 minimum wage would “trickle up” and push employers to pay them more as well, they get jealous that someone flipping burgers might be able to pay rent and buy a giant bag of rice at the asian grocery store, and pay for their medicine.

    Everyone argument against is “I make $22 and that’s “not fair” that someone else can make $15.”

    Bro go demand $27 now damn. Like you’re missing the forest for the trees.
     
  18. Mathemagician

    Mathemagician SS.org Regular

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    Fantastic so you agree that since $15 isn’t anything to write home about that it should be very simple to just update the legal minimum to $15.

    If “it doesn’t matter” and should just be left alone, then it can also be argued that it “doesn’t matter” and the numbers should be updated.

    And in what city can $15 support a family?

    I mean actual middle class life support a family:
    Homeownership, stay at home spouse, 1-2 kids, annual vacation, medical coverage for everyone, hobbies/sports/after school activities. Because even if both people make $15 they won’t hit all those marks.

    Middle class doesn’t start until about $60-80k in this country. Excluding NY/SF/LA/etc.

    $15/hr is not “middle class”. It’s simply “not destitute”. Most people making $15/hr still have roommates and are looking for that next better job.

    Ive literally never made minimum wage. I’ve always had some sort of sales/bonus component to my comp. It still isn’t hard to see that there should be some sort of floor on how badly a person should have to choose between medicine and food. Which is what $7.75/hr does to anyone still making that.
     
  19. sleewell

    sleewell SS.org Regular

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    like i said i really dont care one way or the other but it certainly is becoming a stupid distraction issue. i think its dumb to put it in a covid relief bill. is there any other unrelated pork or pet projects we can hide in there??

    if it is that important each state should take up the issue and let voters decide. saying people should make the same at a bank vs fast food kinda sounds like communism to me. the candidates and skills required for each job would be interchangeable at all.
     
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  20. Mathemagician

    Mathemagician SS.org Regular

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    Communism is the government telling you what you will earn. And what you are allowed to spend it on. And setting the price that things cost. All while controlling the supply of production.

    Mandating a minimum wage allows a person to plan a baseline budget and to not need 2 jobs in order to just pay for food, shelter, and for some medicine. If they want to earn more they are free to go get a second job/look for a better one.

    The minimum wage does not act as a cap on earnings potential, it does not control costs of production, nor does it prevent a citizen from blowing it all on GME and losing their apartment when rent comes due.

    Attaching minimum wage to inflation is overdue by 15 years. And is being fought by elected officials whose own constituents support the increase.

    Conflating an issue that would be a massive economic shot in the arm due to the increase in consumer spending that would occur from a hike in the minimum to “useless pork” is disingenuous.

    Just because people used to have it worse doesn’t mean we shouldn’t try to improve the baseline when we can.

    What effect on your life does letting poor people have things do? $15 is barely enough for necessities/needs not wants.

    So I agree, by getting this out of the way NOW, we won’t be distracted by it later.

    As anyone who has ever cooked can attest cooking food and ensuring that it’s prepared correctly and doesn’t make people sick is “more skilled” than processing bank deposits. Desk job =/= Magically more difficult.

    If the bank job has a higher earnings ceiling then good deal!
     
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