US Political Discussion: Biden/Harris Edition (Rules in OP)

Discussion in 'Politics & Current Events' started by mongey, Mar 2, 2016.

  1. Drew

    Drew Forum MVP

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    Well, then he goes and undercuts the whole argument - first he says he needed to "know the facts" before making his second statement half-heartedly condemning white supremacists in Charlottesville, and then he goes back to his first statement, saying the problem wasn't just white supremacists, but that it was left-wing violence that instigated the killings. Like, if he needed to know "facts" like David Duke was there, then why was he now reverting to his original dissertation condemning hatred "on many sides"?

    Basically, he got caught with his hand in the white nationalist cookie jar, and had to publicly backpedal. And then, in the middle of a press conference on infrastructure, he decided to say fuck it and double down on being an apologist for neo Nazis.
     
  2. bostjan

    bostjan MicroMetal Contributor

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    Blame the victims. See where that strategy gets you.

    One thing I have to hand to Trump is that he doesn't give two shits about public opinion. :shrug:
     
  3. Drew

    Drew Forum MVP

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    I'm starting to wonder if Trump actually did hit a breaking point, last night.

    CNBC is reporting that the President's Strategic & Policy Forum has disbanded - Trump is spinning it as his decision, but the council had all resigned, evidently each taking a turn to explain their decision, before they voted to disband. Sounds like it wasn't unanimous, but pretty close. Meanwhile, CNBC is having prominent business Trump supporters on to defend him, and absolutely lambasting them, for their refusal to condemn the President for being an apologist for American neo-Nazis. Seeing these rich white good ol' Southern boys just speechless, trying to come up with something to say, as the hosts repeatedly push them on why they can't condemn the president's remarks ("Listen, I get it - I grew up in a small town in VA, half the local streets were named after confederate generals, I understand how complicated this is. But, how can you sit there and say that when the President sees protesters carrying swastika flags, how can he not condemn that?"), visibly outraged, faces twitching, but just with nothing substantial they can say...

    The white nationalist movement in this country sees this as a once in a lifetime situation to seize control of the narrative and legitimize themselves. I'm starting to think, though, that there's a very real chance they may have miscalculated.
     
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  4. tedtan

    tedtan SS.org Regular

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    I wouldn't be surprised because that was REALLY bad. Like "thirteen year old throwing a tantrum" only in front of the media level bad.

    I also won't be surprised if this is the point at which the republican party begins to turn on Trump. They are already distancing themselves from his racism, but I can see them turning on him to the point of wanting to use the Russia scandals as reason to impeach him and remove him from office over this.
     
  5. bostjan

    bostjan MicroMetal Contributor

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    Well, Mitt Romney, George Bush, other George Bush, Mitch McConnell, and many other republicans have already more or less denounced Trump's sentiments. Meanwhile there are still legal actions against Trump and at least one major investigation into him. The only think that might turn this all around is if North Korea tries to attack the US or something like that, then everyone will unite under the war banners and forget about all of the anti-anti-KKK and anti-anti-Nazi comments from him.
     
  6. bostjan

    bostjan MicroMetal Contributor

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    I pose a question:

    If Trump had been president when Dr. Martin Luther King was assassinated, what would Trump have said?
     
  7. Drew

    Drew Forum MVP

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    I'm going to go one step further - I think, barely more than 6 months into Trump's term, he's now a lame duck president.

    • He lost the business community this afternoon. They voted to disband his strategic & policy forum, and were scheduled to vote to do the same on his manufacturing forum, later this afternoon, before he pre-emptively disbanded the latter, too. CNBC is describing this as a "vote of no confidence" from the business community.
    • His relationship with Congress was already badly strained, before his statement last night. The GOP may still get a modest cut to the corporate tax rate done, but with Trump calling for a cut to 15% while they'll be hard pressed to do better than 25-28%, he's already setting them up for failure. If he pushes for another attempt at repeal & replace, he'll be politely told to go pound sand. His legislative agenda is effectively dead.
    • He's hit the limits of foreign power, too - he's already isolated himself in Europe, and after the last round of threats with North Korea, South Korea stepped forward and told him that no nation has the right to unilaterally attack North Korea, and if anything happens they'd better be involved.
    I don't really see where he goes from here. His legislative agenda is dead, his relationship with the business world is in tatters, he's isolated himself internationally... If he wants to get anything done, he needs to learn to work within the system by the system's rules, which seems highly unlikely. More likely, he's going to remain completely isolated and marginalized, at home and abroad.
     
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  8. Explorer

    Explorer He seldomly knows...

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    I'm going to note that less than fifteen current Republican members of Congress have denounced Trump's claim of "good guys" among the Nazis.

    Less than fifteen current Republican congress members,

    Fifteen seems like such a low bar, but the Republicans haven't made it.
     
  9. Kevcarnage

    Kevcarnage Well-Known Member

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    Trump is the man
     
  10. Drew

    Drew Forum MVP

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    That's a super articulate and nuanced argument you've contributed to this discusson!

    I still think his legislative agenda is dead in the water, as he's run out of tools to be effective with, pretty much across the board. Your thinking he's the man doesn't exactly sway my thinking. :lol:
     
  11. vilk

    vilk Very Regular

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    idk if you saw the other thread he was posting in but I don't think that kev really understands the caliber of discussion that goes on in the SSO PC&E section... well at least, he didn't used to. After getting shut down over and over and having everything he says punted back into his face he probably has a little better picture now
     
  12. Drew

    Drew Forum MVP

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    Honestly, I'd be happy to have a polite, deep, and nuanced conversation with an honest-to-god Trump supporter who still supports the man, but all the ones I know have been turned off by his conduct in the Russia investigation and his recent statements on Charlottesville, and online all you ever find is the #MAGA trolls.

    I'd be really curious to try to understand after everything he's done, what could still make someone think he's the guy we need as our President. I just want to understand that thought process.
     
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  13. bostjan

    bostjan MicroMetal Contributor

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    To be fair, you never know when you might be dealing with a troll on the internet, but regardless of how insincere someone may be as a person, their arguments might still stand logical tests or not.

    In the 1990's I was trolled a few times in political message boards, simply because the best trolls would have one or two decent arguments against whomever they were trolling.

    The trouble with Trump's entire presidency, is that none of the arguments his supporters made for him to be elected ever spoke to me on any level. "He speaks his mind" - yeah, well, so do I - would I make a good PotUS?! :lol: "He's not a politician, so he doesn't speak for the billionaire interests who pull the puppet strings of Washington" - No, he's not under billionaire control, because he is the billionaire usually pulling strings, so the argument doesn't make any sense to me. "He wants to bring US industrial strength back" - yeah, as opposed to any of his political opponents who will tell you that exact same line... It all adds up to, in my mind, that people were gullible enough to vote for this guy on the hope that he was going to change things and shake up the government. I can agree with the sentiment, but I think Trump was never the way to do that. He's cutting the middleman out of government corruption and going straight to the source. In the general election, there were enough people who distrusted HRC to make all of the difference in just the right places. Somehow Trump appeared to some groups as someone who would be a strong leader, which is what people have been wanting for a long time. I guess no one cared enough to try to figure out which direction he was going to lead us.
     
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  14. Kevcarnage

    Kevcarnage Well-Known Member

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    Everything spit back in my face? Jesus Christ you guys love making assumptions. I don't support trump. I find the way he speaks hilarious though and that's why I'm referring to him as the man. I find politics to bring out the worst in people. As I can clearly see in these threads. It's just all funny to me. And I support any president we have. Because it's always the people causing the problems anyway. I don't by any means think trump is intelligent enough to run this country however congress holds the real power anyway.
     
  15. bostjan

    bostjan MicroMetal Contributor

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    We all make assumptions from time to time, whether we try not to or whatever. I usually try not to, but I do it all of the time without realizing. For the record, I never assumed you were a Trump supporter, but I could certainly see how people might get that impression based on most of your comments in the PC&E forum. As I said, I like to just look at each argument and see where it goes. Just like I mentioned to you in another thread, though, if you make a lot of weird arguments that just don't make sense to people, either through misunderstanding or through miscommunication, people will stop taking your arguments seriously.
     
  16. Kevcarnage

    Kevcarnage Well-Known Member

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    I was just having fun. I hope you are too. But I can see you guys are too serious about politics for me to stay involved so I'm back to the baritone section lol. Have a great day
     
  17. bostjan

    bostjan MicroMetal Contributor

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    I see, so nothing serious then. Cheers!
     
  18. Drew

    Drew Forum MVP

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    Whereas I absolutely assumed you were a Trump supporter. :lol:

    The only thing I'll say, is that it may all be funny to you, but it's a matter of life and death to a lot of minority group Americans.
     
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  19. bostjan

    bostjan MicroMetal Contributor

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  20. Drew

    Drew Forum MVP

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    No matter that there's zero historical evidence that ever happened, and the battle that it allegedly happened in was two years before the US decided to withdraw from the war, so even if that old wives' tale HAD happened, it would clearly not have worked. :lol:

    It's funny, though, how much faster he got the "facts" about Barcelona than he did about Charlottesville.
     

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