US Political Discussion: Biden/Harris Edition (Rules in OP)

coreysMonster

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You fail to appreciate that one of these things is entirely avoidable and the other really isn't. I can't reasonably give up driving. I have to drive. But this country can refuse to bring in hundreds of thousands of "refugees." You're comparing apples to oranges.

You also fail to appreciate that one of these things is possibly a personal choice. Maybe someone doesn't really need to drive. They can individually make the decision whether or not to take the risk. The decision to take in all of these refugees is a decision that is thrust upon all of us.
I am comparing apples to oranges because one is a quantifiable very real risk that we choose to take every day that endangers lives and damages the environment, and the other is less likely than getting hit by lightning yet people are arguing about saving the lives of hundreds of thousands of people because of it.

I'm making the point that being scared of a terrorist attack because of refugees is laughable and is not a valid reason for not wanting to let refugees in. Matters of personal choice don't matter when the argument is a bad one from the start. Might as well be against refugees because they wear green a lot and that bothers you for some reason, just as silly a reason.
 

ncfiala

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Part of me believes it's literally as simple as: People are intimidated by foreign language.

My reasoning is that, in my personal experience, Mexican people have more in common with American conservatives than they do with liberals.
-lack college education
-religiously Christian
-homophobic
-pro-life
-racist against blacks (often openly if speaking Spanish)
-very family oriented
-often from a rural place with agriculture/livestock knowledge


When you share a religious belief system, social values, and hell even the food culture is very similar for basically all the boarder states... what's left but language and melanin?

It's only a hypothesis though.

You're just spouting a bunch of stereotypes. College educated people are maybe more likely to be liberal, at least when they're young, but a big reason for that is that college is all about indoctrination into liberal dogma at this point. Strangely enough, academia is more intolerant of opinions that don't toe the line than anywhere. I've worked in academia for 20 years.
 

ncfiala

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I am comparing apples to oranges because one is a quantifiable very real risk that we choose to take every day that endangers lives and damages the environment, and the other is less likely than getting hit by lightning yet could save the lives of hundreds of thousands of people.

I'm making the point that being scared of a terrorist attack because of refugees is laughable and is not a valid reason for not wanting to let refugees in. Matters of personal choice don't matter when the argument is a bad one from the start.

You can say it's not a valid reason, but that is simply your opinion. We all do our own cost-benefit analysis.
 

ncfiala

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It's a lot of the reason that I don't think very many people go far out of their way to help homeless people or addicts, there's a fear that this person will do more to damage your life than the amount of good you'll be able to do for them.

Hell I've even done that. I let an alcoholic friend live with me for three months for free. He eventually stole my car and got a DUI and went to jail. I let an alcoholic vet who I didn't even know live with me for two months for free. He took off and left all his crap here. I got burned in both cases, but I chose to take the risk.
 

ncfiala

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"Me first and .... the rest" is not a cost-benefit analysis, it's just plain selfish and cynical.

Maybe it isn't to you, but that is your opinion. Many liberals fail to see that these are matters of opinion, not fact. They are right and I'm wrong. That's BS. I have my opinion and you have yours. You have every right to it and I'm not going to say it's wrong. I just disagree.
 

narad

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but a big reason for that is that college is all about indoctrination into liberal dogma at this point.

Ah yes, good ol' LIBDEM 101: Intro to Liberal Dogma

I'm guessing this is more an effect of overgeneralizing outside of your particular university.
 

ncfiala

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Well I'm out. I usually only post here at work and I've been home for two hours. Priorities...
 

coreysMonster

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Maybe it isn't to you, but that is your opinion. Many liberals fail to see that these are matters of opinion, not fact. They are right and I'm wrong. That's BS. I have my opinion and you have yours. You have every right to it and I'm not going to say it's wrong. I just disagree.
I never said you're wrong, I said your fear is irrational. Discussions don't work that way.

Many liberals fail to see that these are matters of opinion, not fact. They are right and I'm wrong. That's BS. I have my opinion and you have yours.
And your opinion is based off of an irrational fear. That makes your opinion objectively not based in reality. That's how arguing works, you have to make a logical connection between facts and your opinion. You can't just say "the sky is green, that's my opinion so I'm not wrong and hurr durr liberals and their 'facts'", if your logic is flawed then of course other people can tell you you're wrong. That's not a liberal or conservative thing, that's the basis of rational thought.
 

CapnForsaggio

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He's not stupid, he's just willfully only accepting things that agree with his prior convictions. One, I haven't given up that he may gradually become more open minded (though talking about him openly in front of him probably isnt helping :lol:) and two, it's a good intellectual exercise - by taking the time to refute a lot of what he's saying, I usually learn and improve my own understanding in the process.

Also, it occasionally gets slow at work, and I enjoy beating dead horses.

My personal beliefs and voting record is fairly moderate. You'll have to take my word on that one.

I find dyed-in-the-wool progressives to be dangerous group thinkers, who force their views on everyone and vote for ever-larger government.

I find dyed-in-the-wool conservatives to be dangerous group thinkers, who mind their own damned business and vote for smaller government.

It is obviously more important to "do battle" with one of these mindsets, especially considering my geographical location. Portland is an S-hole.
 

MFB

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I find dyed-in-the-wool conservatives to be dangerous group thinkers, who mind their own damned business and vote for smaller government.

Yeah, they've really minded their own business when it comes to gay marriage and a woman's right to choose
 

TheHandOfStone

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The odds of getting in a car and dying are thousands of times higher than getting killed by a refugee and yet we drive millions of them every day.
No joke, I almost brought up the death toll of rising speed limits in my last post. People don't even have to stop driving; they could just drive slower. Convenience is worth at least 33,000 lives to some Americans, but there are people here who think a single death from admitting refugees is too many.

Anyway, I think I'm done arguing this point now. :deadhrse:
 

big_aug

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I mean, when the President cites some total random with zero credibility (Gregg Phillips) as a source for his voter fraud investigation....

What in the ....? Did you see this guy get interviewed by Chris Cuomo? The .... is he even doing getting interviewed? He has zero facts or evidence. I guess I applaud them for making the guy look like a complete fool. And our president uses this as his source? I could actually get on board with some stuff he wants to do. But holy ...., my brain cannot operate on a level so low as to over look stuff like this.
 

big_aug

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I do give Trump props for convincing many Americans that a tax (tariff) on imported goods is paid by the country that exports them.

:lol:
 

PunkBillCarson

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I have to say that I also subscribe to the idea of having your family and you come first. I mean, the way I look at it, I don't have very long on this Earth and neither does my family and I feel it's my job to make sure they have what they need/want before anyone else, refugee or not. I really don't give a damn if that's considered selfish because I'm not here to appease anyone but those I love and care for. I really don't give a damn about the rest of the planet/humanity, and if the world was to end tomorrow, I honestly would have no regrets.

Now to address another point. The man said he rented a room to a Haitian man and he had a gay guy at his wedding, while also being accused of being a racist. Now whether he is or not, I have to say that I've never understood why it's so easy to label someone a racist/bigot and the person at hand's retort that gives examples of why they wouldn't be is attacked. Obviously, it didn't bother him to entrust a man with a different skin color than himself to one of his rooms and it didn't bother him to have a gay guy at his wedding. So what the hell is he supposed to say/do to defend himself? It appears that it's easy to call someone a bigot these days and even less options for a person to defend their position.

Maybe he's racist, maybe he's not. But I would think he's a bit more open minded in some regards than he's being given credit for and it's like the other side has a bit of a hard time losing as well.
 

flint757

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Yeah, they've really minded their own business when it comes to gay marriage and a woman's right to choose

That one always gets me. The politicians conservatives consistently vote into office are NOT for smaller government. I don't think corporatism, endless war, policing the world, federal approved pet projects (a wall), etc. can possibly qualify as small government. Bathroom bills, bills meant to close health clinics, bills about gay sex, etc. have nothing to do with 'shrinking' government, but an attempt to make our laws more like a Christian theocracy.

I do give Trump props for convincing many Americans that a tax (tariff) on imported goods is paid by the country that exports them.

:lol:

Luckily, no one I know has made a comment supporting this maneuver, even on the conservative front; although they haven't brought it up either. I can't tell if he thinks we're dumb or if it's just him.
 

ncfiala

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Ah yes, good ol' LIBDEM 101: Intro to Liberal Dogma

I'm guessing this is more an effect of overgeneralizing outside of your particular university.

The extreme liberal bent in academia is pretty well known and documented. Read Tenured Radicals.
 

ncfiala

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And your opinion is based off of an irrational fear. That makes your opinion objectively not based in reality. That's how arguing works, you have to make a logical connection between facts and your opinion. You can't just say "the sky is green, that's my opinion so I'm not wrong and hurr durr liberals and their 'facts'", if your logic is flawed then of course other people can tell you you're wrong. That's not a liberal or conservative thing, that's the basis of rational thought.

You can say my opinion is irrational or illogical all you want, but that doesn't make it so. You, along with many others it seems, seem to think that "rationality" and "logic" emcompass a single way of thinking. In other words, two people that are both "rational" and "logical" will always arrive at the same conclusion. This is simply not so. You use these two words but do you even know what they mean? What's rational to you and what's rational to me may be vastly different because we may have very different utility functions.

Do you even know what a logic is? I'm a mathematician. Mathematicians have devised and studied literally hundreds of different logics (and we can devise infinitely many more), each with its own grammar and rules for making inferences. In other words, each with its own way of "reasoning." None of these ways is "right" and none of these ways is "wrong," they are simply different.

I don't know why you can't just admit that this is a matter of opinion. But like many liberals, you have to be right and I have to be wrong. I couldn't care less about being right because I don't think there is such a thing. I just have an opinion.
 

Axayacatl

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...You, along with many others it seems, seem to think that "rationality" and "logic" emcompass a single way of thinking.

...Mathematicians have devised and studied literally hundreds of different logics (and we can devise infinitely many more), each with its own grammar and rules for making inferences. In other words, each with its own way of "reasoning." None of these ways is "right" and none of these ways is "wrong," they are simply different.

Each one of these logical constructions can be different, for sure. And I agree that it is ultimately a matter of 'opinion' to pick which logical construction one will apply. Heck, different applications in science and engineering use different notions of 'distance'. So maybe there is a bit of practicality mixed in with the choice.

1) as a mathematician, you probably agree it is important to be internally consistent within these logical constructions.
2) what logical construction are you picking to interpret the world around you?
3) are you applying your own logical construction in an internally consistent fashion?

As a species we are starting to understand how emotion is processed before reason, but it is relatively new (for example:How Emotions Affect Logical Reasoning). The animal brain clearly evolved milenia before our advanced human brain (i.e., that big brain that got you your math Ph.D, mega kudos for that).

I guess the part that confuses me is why you are using logical constructions (e.g., the real numbers) to defend an opinion.

Instead of telling us what you think, you should tell us how you feel.

Once we are honest to ourselves about our feelings we can grow and start being a bit more objective about the world and what 'logical' construction we are really using to interpret what happens around us.
 


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