US Political Discussion: Biden/Harris Edition (Rules in OP)

bostjan

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Well, I haven't posted in a while but I still lurk a lot. Here's my take:

...

Who was that masked man? :lol:

nice-post.jpg

Nice post!
 

ncfiala

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Implicit in all of this is the assumption that someone from another country has exactly the same right to help as a citizen of this country. I simply don't agree with that. You can call me a racist or whatever "ist" or "phobia" word you want but you're wrong. I rent a room in my house to a black guy from Haiti (who also thinks the Somalian invasion around here is ridiculous). The best man at my wedding is gay. But just go ahead and call me a bigot or whatever, I don't care.
 

narad

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Implicit in all of this is the assumption that someone from another country has exactly the same right to help as a citizen of this country. I simply don't agree with that. You can call me a racist or whatever "ist" or "phobia" word you want but you're wrong. I rent a room in my house to a black guy from Haiti (who also thinks the Somalian invasion around here is ridiculous). The best man at my wedding is gay. But just go ahead and call me a bigot or whatever, I don't care.

http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Friend_argument
 

MFB

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I rent a room in my house to a black guy from Haiti (who also thinks the Somalian invasion around here is ridiculous). The best man at my wedding is gay. But just go ahead and call me a bigot or whatever, I don't care.

Oh wow, is this really what we've come to in our conversations?
 

Mr Violence

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Implicit in all of this is the assumption that someone from another country has exactly the same right to help as a citizen of this country. I simply don't agree with that. You can call me a racist or whatever "ist" or "phobia" word you want but you're wrong. I rent a room in my house to a black guy from Haiti (who also thinks the Somalian invasion around here is ridiculous). The best man at my wedding is gay. But just go ahead and call me a bigot or whatever, I don't care.

The first 2 sentences were good at conveying your message. Although, it plays directly into my first point that you're prioritizing and I think that's dumb. However, that's my opinion. The USA was founded on being a refuge for the weary. "Give me your tired, your poor..." But somewhere along the line that value has been lost on half our country.

I accused you of none of your "ists". I just said this whole "us before them" thing is a scapegoat and avenue to hating other people to make oneself feel better and to comfort oneself in finding an end all be all solution to a very nuanced issue. It also quite effectively distracts from issues that really should be addressed that aren't.
 

Drew

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Implicit in all of this is the assumption that someone from another country has exactly the same right to help as a citizen of this country. I simply don't agree with that. You can call me a racist or whatever "ist" or "phobia" word you want but you're wrong. I rent a room in my house to a black guy from Haiti (who also thinks the Somalian invasion around here is ridiculous). The best man at my wedding is gay. But just go ahead and call me a bigot or whatever, I don't care.

I mean, if you're making perjorative assumptions about an entire group of people based on their race and religions, then yes, that makes you racist and bigoted.

You are *literally* saying, "I'm not a bigot, I have a gay friend." I hope you at least realize how much of a cliché that is. You should have stopped after your first two sentences.
 

ncfiala

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I mean, if you're making perjorative assumptions about an entire group of people based on their race and religions, then yes, that makes you racist and bigoted.

You are *literally* saying, "I'm not a bigot, I have a gay friend." I hope you at least realize how much of a cliché that is. You should have stopped after your first two sentences.

Do you realize how cliche your bleeding heart liberal speak is?

As many of you get older, your views will probably change. I probably would have been for bringing over anyone and everyone when I was 16. Then I grew up and realized life isn't fair and you can't save the world. You can only try to protect your little niche of it.
 

vilk

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^You might as well have written "OK I admit I said something silly", because that's what we all just read.

Also, have you seen the NGDs on this site and how expensive they are? My assumption of the average age of a given user on here is definitely not 'teenaged'.
 

ncfiala

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^You might as well have written "OK I admit I said something silly", because that's what we all just read.

Also, have you seen the NGDs on this site and how expensive they are? My assumption of the average age of a given user on here is definitely not 'teenaged'.

I didn't mean to imply teenage, that's just probably about when my views changed. I meant to imply that the average user here, as someone else has also said, is probably on the young side.
 

TedEH

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I don't care.

I think I get where you're coming from, to a point. The way I was raised included this idea that you help your own first - and there's some value to that. If I've got $100 to donate, for example, I'll donate it to something that I know will benefit my own family and friends first - Like my family has dealt with cancer, and brittle bone syndrome, etc. so it wouldn't be a stretch to say that if I was going to offer anyone any type of support, then that's where it would go. Absolutely makes sense, and I agree with you on that point.

There's also value in saying that we shouldn't necessarily help any/every person or group that asks for help without considering the implications - without considering if there's a legitimate risk involved - and I get that too. I really do. It's a lot of the reason that I don't think very many people go far out of their way to help homeless people or addicts, there's a fear that this person will do more to damage your life than the amount of good you'll be able to do for them. I won't make any judgement as to whether or not that's right or wrong, but I understand it.

However -

I think that an anti-immigrant stance is based on a poor assessment of the level of risk involved compared to the amount of good it would do. I've run into a lot of people who were convinced that pretty much anyone who comes from outside of their country is dangerous by default- not because of race or anything, and to be honest, I don't fully know the reasons in ever case, but it always boils down to an irrational fear - fear of the unknown, I guess?

Part of the issue is that there are political forces that benefit from creating that narrative that foreigners are dangerous, and Trump is the obvious example.

I think that I understand you, and agree to some point that home, your own citizens, your allies, etc. - there's definitely a system of priorities in terms of who to help first, or who to protect, etc. It's my opinion (and likely that of the others here who are continuing the argument) that you've drawn that line in accordance with a sort of unrealistic xenophobia.

In other words- Yes, definitely protect your own first. But that doesn't mean closing the borders, because foreigners and other cultures are not dangerous as you're making them out to be.
 

TedEH

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^ Dunno if this is what you were going for but

I'm pretty used to people being very defensive of their culture being lost or taken over - being from Quebec, where there's this weird fear that anglophones are going to take away their culture.

I don't know if being an English-only person who has always lives in Quebec has had a significant impact on how I view these kinda of relations - I'm always the "outsider" who's "taking their jobs" or "ruining their culture" - regardless of which province I'm in. Ontario people talk to me about how Quebecers are stealing their jobs (lol, I'm a Quebecer working in Ontario, so jokes on you, I guess?), but I'm the outsider in Quebec too, since there are things like laws that say if I ever have kids, I'm not allowed to enroll them in an English school. So many laws here that are meant to encourage me to move away, but I won't do it. I like it here despite how oddly hostile it can be sometimes. (Not physically hostile, just sort of awkward.)
 

ncfiala

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I think I get where you're coming from, to a point. The way I was raised included this idea that you help your own first - and there's some value to that. If I've got $100 to donate, for example, I'll donate it to something that I know will benefit my own family and friends first - Like my family has dealt with cancer, and brittle bone syndrome, etc. so it wouldn't be a stretch to say that if I was going to offer anyone any type of support, then that's where it would go. Absolutely makes sense, and I agree with you on that point.

There's also value in saying that we shouldn't necessarily help any/every person or group that asks for help without considering the implications - without considering if there's a legitimate risk involved - and I get that too. I really do. It's a lot of the reason that I don't think very many people go far out of their way to help homeless people or addicts, there's a fear that this person will do more to damage your life than the amount of good you'll be able to do for them. I won't make any judgement as to whether or not that's right or wrong, but I understand it.

However -

I think that an anti-immigrant stance is based on a poor assessment of the level of risk involved compared to the amount of good it would do. I've run into a lot of people who were convinced that pretty much anyone who comes from outside of their country is dangerous by default- not because of race or anything, and to be honest, I don't fully know the reasons in ever case, but it always boils down to an irrational fear - fear of the unknown, I guess?

Part of the issue is that there are political forces that benefit from creating that narrative that foreigners are dangerous, and Trump is the obvious example.

I think that I understand you, and agree to some point that home, your own citizens, your allies, etc. - there's definitely a system of priorities in terms of who to help first, or who to protect, etc. It's my opinion (and likely that of the others here who are continuing the argument) that you've drawn that line in accordance with a sort of unrealistic xenophobia.

In other words- Yes, definitely protect your own first. But that doesn't mean closing the borders, because foreigners and other cultures are not dangerous as you're making them out to be.

And I understand where everyone is coming from as well. It would be great to just save everybody and we all live happily ever after. But my naive idealism died long ago.

Perhaps your opinion who be different if terrorist attacks had happened in two places close to your heart. The St. Cloud, Minnesota mall attack and the Ohio State attacks were both perpetrated by Somalian refugees. If they wouldn't have been brought here 21 people here in the US wouldn't have been injured. Sure, the chances of this happening to me or someone I love is slim, but the probability of being attacked by a refugee is zero if there are none. I like those odds better.
 

coreysMonster

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but the probability of being attacked by a refugee is zero if there are none. I like those odds better.
The odds of getting in a car and dying are thousands of times higher than getting killed by a refugee and yet we drive millions of them every day. It's an absolutely irrational fear born out of xenophobia and nothing else.

I used to live in Berlin, where terrorist attack by a failed Tunisian asylum seeker recently took place. Nobody I know was hurt or killed, and if they were it's very possible I'd think differently, but even then it would still be as irrational as being angry at all drivers for the one driver that killed a friend.
 

vilk

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Part of me believes it's literally as simple as: People are intimidated by foreign language.

My reasoning is that, in my personal experience, Mexican people have more in common with American conservatives than they do with liberals.
-lack college education
-religiously Christian
-homophobic
-pro-life
-racist against blacks (often openly if speaking Spanish)
-very family oriented
-grew up in a rural place

^I understand those are all stereotypes. Let me repeat I'm only talking about the people I've met in my life.


When you share a religious belief system, social values, and hell even the food culture is very similar for basically all the boarder states... what's left but language and melanin?

It's only a hypothesis though.
 

ncfiala

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The odds of getting in a car and dying are thousands of times higher than getting killed by a refugee. It's an absolutely irrational fear born out of xenophobia and nothing else.

You fail to appreciate that one of these things is entirely avoidable and the other really isn't. I can't reasonably give up driving. I have to drive. But this country can refuse to bring in hundreds of thousands of "refugees." You're comparing apples to oranges.

You also fail to appreciate that one of these things is possibly a personal choice. Maybe someone doesn't really need to drive. They can individually make the decision whether or not to take the risk. The decision to take in all of these refugees is a decision that is thrust upon all of us.
 


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