US Political Discussion: Biden/Harris Edition (Rules in OP)

nightflameauto

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Well put. I can't say I disagree with any of that.

But what I think @philkilla was referring to is that the vast majority of the posters here more or less align politically (anti-trump, pro-abortion, anti-gun, etc). It is not easy posting a dissenting opinion on this board. I know I have been personally insulted. I didn't get insulted for insulting somebody (which I never have), but for stating my opinion. I know I am 2 inches away from getting banned, just for dissenting to some things said here. Either though control or through creating a toxicity for those who disagree, you foster an environment where those who disagree leave and all you have left is like-minded individuals. That is the echo chamber.
The second I see the word "pro-abortion" my brain goes "fuck off."

Nobody's pro-abortion. Nobody. That's the type of right-wing virtue signaling bullshit that makes you think everybody in here is a member of the echo chamber, because in all honesty, it's impossible to see those words and not have a guttural reaction to it. It's patently false wording designed *SPECIFICALLY* to get a reaction, so you can whine and cry about how unfair people are treating your 'opinion' (that appears to be entirely gleaned from right-wing media).

As for the new bill being signed and the media companies throwing champagne parties over how great the Democrats are for saving the planet? No.

It will do fuck-all for 99.99% of us, and most of it will be gutted the second the Trumpers come storming back into office now that they've cleared out the riff-raff like Cheney for daring to not kiss his ass publicly every other second. As much as I don't care for Cheney policies, I at least respected that there seemed to be a brain stem and spine involved in them. It's depressing to watch the party I least agree with toss out one of the few members I can at least nod at as a human being.

I guess they needed to make more room for the fist pumping morons and the twitter spazzes.
 

StevenC

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Dude you can't deny that any dissenting opinion is met with hostility.

The only reason I'm a part of this subset of the ss.org community is to witness and perceive different perspectives.

9/10 it's just a show of hypocrisy. I rarely if ever see anyone post views that don't involve flinging literary feces at the other side; nothing to gain and nothing to grow.
Except the problem isn't the dissenting opinion, it's the disinterest in discourse.

For example:

Guns. USA is the only country where this routinely happens. Most lefty types would like something to be done about this. Pro gun people come in and say something about the 2A. But the problem is the justification for the 2A hasn't been relevant for at least 100 years, and every other country in the world with less tyranny than the USA doesn't have a 2A equivalent. So pro gun peeps just nope out of the conversation or get up in their feelings, instead of saying "I like guns and should be allowed to keep them". The conversation can't go anywhere because one side has solutions and the other does not want solutions.

Climate change. The overwhelming majority of scientists agree that human influenced climate change is a real thing. The planet is heating at an unprecedented rate and every year we're having once in a lifetime weather events. All the science and reality says something needs to be done. Right wing types just disagree without justification.

Vaccines. Literally the greatest technological innovation in human history. Saves untold lives. Incredibly safe. Plenty of research behind them. Antivax exist for some reason. Sometimes they say "my body my choice" while unironically being anti-...

Abortion. Glades just did this. "pro-women's rights, anti abortion". Literally doesn't mean anything. No interest in a conversation because apparently it's decreed from god, no other justifications offered. Life begins at conception "because scientists said so" but that's the only time we care what science says. But it's literally a philosophical issue. This one is all double think.

Etc

When dissenting views come in here with good faith arguments they will be taken seriously. That hasn't happened. Meanwhile pages and pages and pages and pages and pages and pages and pages (seriously guys) of Drew and bostjan bickering over some inane disagreement firing endless articles at each other, because they know how to construct and have a debate. Meanwhile meanwhile, dissenting voices just won't reply when one engages with them.
 

bostjan

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I think part of the crux of the problem is that people on whichever "wing" of politics distrust authority. On the right, people distrust doctors, on the left, people distrust the police.

The fact of the matter is that we should have some trust in both the police and in medicine, but we should also scrutinize those systems quite heavily to ensure that we can trust them. But we don't.

The police are allowed to shoot innocent people and explain it away as "I was scared for my safety" when that excuse doesn't work for anyone else. Most police personnel don't have the tendency to shoot innocent people, but the system stands up for those who do. The police also have a strong tendency to lie to people (it's even part of their protocols with suspects) or to misrepresent the levels of their authority in order to get away with breaking the laws. It's not all police, but it is systematic and it continually goes unsatisfactorily addressed.

The medical system is also completely fucked. Not everyone who goes for surgery to get their tonsils out ends up with both of their arms amputated, but it happens. Probably a lot more common is when someone needs medical care, and instead of getting their bone set or their stitches, they end up getting a total cashectomy when the hospital bills them unscrupulous amounts. Again, it is a problem that this happens, but the much bigger problem is that it's systematic, and that the system allows it to happen without appropriate deterrent to keep it from happening over and over again.

Tying those both together is the fact that trust in the court system is also very low. More and more judges are being filmed going on power trips, or getting caught dealing with bribes. We know how the courts have primarily dealt with out-of-control police officers, and even though the courts have held some medical people responsible, the courts have a tendency to disregard problems in the system itself.

Ultimately there are systematic problems. The systems are broken. No one is fixing them. Distrust of authority abounds.
 

eaeolian

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Except the problem isn't the dissenting opinion, it's the disinterest in discourse.

For example:

USA is the only country where this routinely happens. Most lefty types would like something to be done about this.
This is a perfect example of dishonest discourse. Most *Americans* want something done about this at the Federal level, regardless of political leanings, at least according to polling.
 

StevenC

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This is a perfect example of dishonest discourse. Most *Americans* want something done about this at the Federal level, regardless of political leanings, at least according to polling.
My apologies. The correct phrasing was "most people in this thread want something done about it, while people come in with the dissenting opinion that nothing should be done". If at any point in that comment I said "left/right" I meant philkilla's echo chamber versus philkilla's dissenting opinions.
 

bostjan

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Except the problem isn't the dissenting opinion, it's the disinterest in discourse.

For example:

Guns. USA is the only country where this routinely happens. Most lefty types would like something to be done about this. Pro gun people come in and say something about the 2A. But the problem is the justification for the 2A hasn't been relevant for at least 100 years, and every other country in the world with less tyranny than the USA doesn't have a 2A equivalent. So pro gun peeps just nope out of the conversation or get up in their feelings, instead of saying "I like guns and should be allowed to keep them". The conversation can't go anywhere because one side has solutions and the other does not want solutions.

Climate change. The overwhelming majority of scientists agree that human influenced climate change is a real thing. The planet is heating at an unprecedented rate and every year we're having once in a lifetime weather events. All the science and reality says something needs to be done. Right wing types just disagree without justification.

Vaccines. Literally the greatest technological innovation in human history. Saves untold lives. Incredibly safe. Plenty of research behind them. Antivax exist for some reason. Sometimes they say "my body my choice" while unironically being anti-...

Abortion. Glades just did this. "pro-women's rights, anti abortion". Literally doesn't mean anything. No interest in a conversation because apparently it's decreed from god, no other justifications offered. Life begins at conception "because scientists said so" but that's the only time we care what science says. But it's literally a philosophical issue. This one is all double think.

Etc

When dissenting views come in here with good faith arguments they will be taken seriously. That hasn't happened. Meanwhile pages and pages and pages and pages and pages and pages and pages (seriously guys) of Drew and bostjan bickering over some inane disagreement firing endless articles at each other, because they know how to construct and have a debate. Meanwhile meanwhile, dissenting voices just won't reply when one engages with them.

Guns - It's difficult to compare Western Europe with the USA, though, honestly. We're still the wild wild west here. It's cultural, maybe even genetic at this point. But shootings happen in places like Afghanistan, Somalia, or Congo as well. Those are basically war zones, though. The USA is sort of in the midst of a culture war, and has been since the Vietnam War era. But this is a country with a ton of cultural diversity. We have to remember that there are still people here who survive by hunting for food. It's a small minority, but taking guns away from those people is essentially taking food away from them. I agree that our gun control laws don't work and that our culture is a big part of the problem and that it needs to change, but it's not going to be as simple as passing a single law.

Regarding climate change - it's economic. There are undoubtedly some who disbelieve the evidence no matter what, but there are also plenty who will change their justification for their conclusions, and eventually will fall back on purely economic justifications, which is what it's all about anyway. Nobody wants to give up their car or their air conditioner or whatever. I'd be shocked if anyone could prove that corrupt politicians someplace like Italy actually care any more about climate change than corrupted politicians in the USA. :shrug:

I think people who are actually generally anti-vax are pretty rare. There was a lot of pushback on the covid vaccine in particular, because it was "new." Of course, even as rare as it is to be face-to-face with antivax'ers, there are enough of them here in the USA that we are now worried about polio. :shrug: But I think it's more nuanced and complex than just people philosophically opposed to boosting their immunity artificially.

I'm not going to equivocate on abortion. I don't really know exactly what the actual reason is to explain why the USA is the way it is.

I know that I've had my mind changed about a lot of things here. It's important to me that my worldview is informed by some sort of rules that can stand up to some form of scrutiny. I'm not the most logical person in the world, so I hold malformed opinions at times. The key thing, though, is to be okay with abandoning an opinion if it doesn't hold any water. It just does you better in the long run. I think that the world would be a better place if, not only did we all keep a more open mind ready to challenge our own views, but if we took a stance where we assumed others were open about challenging their views so that we don't feel discouraged in challenging them. Whether someone refuses to listen to reason or if someone else assumes they will refuse to listen to reason, the result ends up being the same and no one changes their mind.
 

narad

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This is a perfect example of dishonest discourse. Most *Americans* want something done about this at the Federal level, regardless of political leanings, at least according to polling.
Well, what is "something"? I'm used to the idea that the left wants some controls on guns, and the right wants to do whatever trivial thing that could be put into law that would not really affect the ability of mass shooters to acquire assault-style, but would be something they could hold up and say, "We did it!". Or, to say it's a mental health issue, and change the issue from young disturbed and reckless people acquiring powerful weapons, and instead tackle the simple issue of ...getting them to not want to harm other people.
 

tedtan

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I'm not going to equivocate on abortion. I don't really know exactly what the actual reason is to explain why the USA is the way it is.
Its as simple as evangelical Christians who feel the need to go out and convert others to their belief system so they can get into heaven. Without that need to force their views on others, we wouldn’t have the abortion issues we have today.
 

DrewH

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But the murder of innocent babies, who are given no chance at life, who are deprived of the most basic and fundamental right there is, is heinous. We should all, as citizens stand together against murder of the innocent, and expect our government to provide for their protection and safety.

I'm sure you are also a vegan AND a animal rights activist, right? Look at all the cats and dogs who are killed yearly in shelters. How about all the livestock killed yearly for your dinner? Where are the pro-life Republicans when it comes to that? Life is life. You can't just pick and choose what life you want to protect, because then you are just a hypocrite. Or, you are one of these misled zombies who thinks humans are some kind of enlightened beings deserving of better treatment. A Euthanized dog is a conscious life form. A fetus has no soul, no awareness, and can't feel pain or fear. It can't exist outside the womb. For all intents and purposes, a fetus is technically a parasite, and not a "baby" as you people so love to term it.

Just be honest. You want people to live by YOUR very questionable standards and you can't come up with a logical reason why. Maybe it was drilled into your head by your very questionable priest, who might have been doing very questionable things behind closed doors. These ideas put into your head were installed there by other humans, who themselves were very flawed and even more flawed we are finding out as time goes along.
 
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nightflameauto

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I'm not going to equivocate on abortion. I don't really know exactly what the actual reason is to explain why the USA is the way it is.
This is an easy one. Control and dissuasion.

Control - So long as we keep ourselves all up in arms about abortion and whether it should be "a right" or even "allowed," we aren't paying attention to the more egregious moves our government officials are making behind the scenes.

Dissuasion - Same as above. It's a good *push that emotional button* topic that can have a bomb dropped on it and dissuade any other political discourse for days, weeks, even months, while all sorts of nefarious shit is done that isn't being talked about.

It ties in with our puritanical heritage. There's still a big enough component of our society, even if it is a minority, that are LOUDLY vocal about their anti-abortion stance. GOD DECREES is basically what most of their argument boils down to. And then, any attempt at having a logical or even an emotion based but logically stated argument can get a hammer-stop "stop persecuting my religious beliefs" flame out.

At some point the religious loons decided freedom of religion meant we're all free to choose which fucked up branch of Christianity we want to adhere to. But choosing not to follow Christianity means we should be dismissed, locked up, or better yet, just killed outright for our lack of faith in THE ONE TRUE GOD.

Abortion fights are a symptom of the rot we were founded on. A symptom that too many are all too happy to utilize to better manipulate society with.

Guns have become another. Yes, a farmer in Wyoming or Iowa probably has a call to keep a couple guns around for coyotes, wolves, and culling injured animals. No, some dude living in an apartment in the middle of a city doesn't really need a god damned arsenal of semi-autos with silencers. But god damn if nary the twain shall meet. It's all or nothing with seemingly everybody involved in the discussion. Because the real goal appears to be keeping us too pissed off to think clearly.

Sadly, I think it's working. I alternate between end-game George Carlin levels of both angry and disappointed, and full-blown 'who fuckin' cares' when I think about where we are as a society. We're headed towards the "let it burn" stage of humanity. And I'm starting to get George's stance that he no longer had a stake in it. I'm not yet amused by it like he was, but I get not wanting to care.
 

Xaios

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Its as simple as evangelical Christians who feel the need to go out and convert others to their belief system so they can get into heaven. Without that need to force their views on others, we wouldn’t have the abortion issues we have today.
I despise proselytizers, because their mindset about faith and works is basically the same as an MLM company. "Once you've signed up enough people for Christianity Inc and have them working under you, then you move up to the next tier, which opens up the Eternal Life perk and access to the Heaven timeshare!"
 

bostjan

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Its as simple as evangelical Christians who feel the need to go out and convert others to their belief system so they can get into heaven. Without that need to force their views on others, we wouldn’t have the abortion issues we have today.
But where does it say anything about abortion in the Evangelical Christian bylaws? The only scriptures I ever see used to justify extreme views about abortion are the one in Jeremiah about how God knew that Jeremiah was going to be a prophet before he was even born and the similar one in Isaiah that basically just says that Isaiah was born. In fact, there are plenty of examples in Biblical law that make it clear that an unborn fetus is of some less value than a born baby in the case of a crime or an accident. And every word in the Bible about the topic are concentrated in the Old Testament, so then why don't the Jewish people hold just as strong views as Evangelicals?

No, there's something else going on that isn't so easy to explain.

Growing up going to a fundamentalist Christian school, I know intimately what the extra rules are that evangelicals have that have nothing to do with the Bible, but it is 100% not taught where those rules come from. Things like how masturbation is really bad, or how dice are banned from use, even in mundane things like board games (you have to use a spinner), or how dancing of any form is absolutely taboo, or doggy style (even between a married couple), or how playing D&D is absolutely equivalent to open outright devil worship (even if you use a spinner :lol: ). We even had a guy who got caught playing pinochle (outside of school) and got in big trouble, and he was like "the Mormons can play pinochle, why can't we?" and the answer was along the lines of no one knows why we are this way, we just are.

This is an easy one. Control and dissuasion.

Control - So long as we keep ourselves all up in arms about abortion and whether it should be "a right" or even "allowed," we aren't paying attention to the more egregious moves our government officials are making behind the scenes.

Dissuasion - Same as above. It's a good *push that emotional button* topic that can have a bomb dropped on it and dissuade any other political discourse for days, weeks, even months, while all sorts of nefarious shit is done that isn't being talked about.

It ties in with our puritanical heritage. There's still a big enough component of our society, even if it is a minority, that are LOUDLY vocal about their anti-abortion stance. GOD DECREES is basically what most of their argument boils down to. And then, any attempt at having a logical or even an emotion based but logically stated argument can get a hammer-stop "stop persecuting my religious beliefs" flame out.

At some point the religious loons decided freedom of religion meant we're all free to choose which fucked up branch of Christianity we want to adhere to. But choosing not to follow Christianity means we should be dismissed, locked up, or better yet, just killed outright for our lack of faith in THE ONE TRUE GOD.

Abortion fights are a symptom of the rot we were founded on. A symptom that too many are all too happy to utilize to better manipulate society with.

Guns have become another. Yes, a farmer in Wyoming or Iowa probably has a call to keep a couple guns around for coyotes, wolves, and culling injured animals. No, some dude living in an apartment in the middle of a city doesn't really need a god damned arsenal of semi-autos with silencers. But god damn if nary the twain shall meet. It's all or nothing with seemingly everybody involved in the discussion. Because the real goal appears to be keeping us too pissed off to think clearly.

Sadly, I think it's working. I alternate between end-game George Carlin levels of both angry and disappointed, and full-blown 'who fuckin' cares' when I think about where we are as a society. We're headed towards the "let it burn" stage of humanity. And I'm starting to get George's stance that he no longer had a stake in it. I'm not yet amused by it like he was, but I get not wanting to care.

I think you are generally correct, but I'd still like to know if anyone knows the specific reason why. Like, I understand that the whole evangelical "thing" is to multiply and spread all over the Earth. But then why, if a pregnant woman is going to die due to pregnancy complications, treat her, even if it means terminating the pregnancy, so that she can live to pop out more babies next year? It seems like it was just an arbitrary decision someone made at one point and then just stonewalled all of the reasonable questions that came up. Something like:

Church leader: "No abortions!"
Other people: "What about rape?"
Church leader: "What part of 'no' did you not understand?"
Other people: "What about incest?"
Church leader: "Did you not hear the word 'no' come out of my mouth?"
Other people: "What if the mother's life is in danger?"
Church leader: "If you question me one more time, your life will be in danger!"
Other people: "Yikes, well alrighty then."
Church leader: "Thus sayeth the LORD, amen."

Probably the same thing with dice and dancing and rock-and-roll music and playing cards and whatever else, except I don't think anyone was ever in a position where there were medical complications with a pair of dice and they either had to roll them or probably die painfully during childbirth.
 
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StevenC

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As to abortion, imagine if Jewish people started a campaign to ban consumption of pork or if Muslim people began a campaign to prohibit consumption of alcohol. You'd probably say something like that violates the First Amendment by making a law respecting the establishment of religion. But the Scotus says it's somehow unconstitutional to stop Christian people making laws based on their religion?
 

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The irony is my initial post wasn't about me, Drew just made it about me. Thanks I guess?? My post was only there as a cautionary tale from trends that occur. Deny it all you want, it happens.

@SpaceDock the same could be said about the current golden age of political humor, except you won't see it from any of the puppets via large network broadcast.

@nightflameauto I like your points, but imo referring to it as a team is a bit disturbing.

Rather, your post wasn't about you, it was about everyone BUT you. I merely called attention to the dichotomy you set up. :2c:
 
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bostjan

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As to abortion, imagine if Jewish people started a campaign to ban consumption of pork or if Muslim people began a campaign to prohibit consumption of alcohol. You'd probably say something like that violates the First Amendment by making a law respecting the establishment of religion. But the Scotus says it's somehow unconstitutional to stop Christian people making laws based on their religion?
Note that the Bible even says not to consume pork, and never says "just kidding" about that, yet show me one good Baptist who doesn't eat bacon.

The religion isn't even based on any scriptures, it's all based on a mindset that is only passed directly through observing the behaviours of the leaders. Honestly it was me actually reading the Bible that got me out of that mindset. Everyone should be legally allowed to practice their religion as long as it doesn't hurt anyone else, but the problem is that the ones leading the religion don't want it to work both ways for everyone else.
 

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So, any synopsis on what's in the new Biden bill?

This feels like the second or third "biggest bill that does stuff in our history" that he's signed that had no direct impact on average Americans. I'm surrounded by tons of moderate Dems and "anyone but a Republican" Biden apologists that constantly applaud the optics of passing bills ("winning") even if the average person has no idea what's in it or sees their life change for the better by election day. Which feels like a very 21st Century DNC type strategy (AKA a bad one).
Nothing in depth, I'm afraid, but high level:

1) most of the commentary I've seen from pro-environment groups think this is pretty huge; this is by far the largest and most sweeping legislation intended to address climate change that's been passed by Congress, and while almost certainly it doesn't go far enough, it goes a LOT farther than anything that's been done at the federal level.

2) most market impact commentary I've read thinks it doesn't do a think about inflation in the short term, in the long term since it does generate about $300B in added revenue over the next ten years it might help a ltitle, but that'll be offset by the $280B outlay on the new chip bill in the same period of time... but since the bill focuses on subsidizing clean energy rather than making "dirty" energy more affordable, it at least won't add to inflation.

3) @Mathemagician and I have talked a lot about share buybacks in recent days. The 1% tax on buybacks, in the short run, doesn't change the incentive much for corporations and won't generate much revenue at all, but this is probably more important as a "cat out of the bag" phenomena than as a nominal tax, as this is the first time there's been any tax consequences for share buybacks, whereas dividends are taxed at 15%. Over time, it's very likely this will increase until they're roughly neutral with dividends from a tax impact standpoint.

I need to do some more reading on my own to really get my head around the minutia, but at a minimum, I follow the Protect Our Winters nonprofit on IG, and they were through the moon over this bill - should put us on track to cut CO2 emissions by 40% from 2006 levels in the next ten, I think, years, which is pretty material.
 

philkilla

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Rather, your post wasn't about you, it was about everyone BUT you. I merely called attention to the dichotomy you set up. :2c:

And I gladly pointed out you're the one to initiate the school yard level bully fest without hesitation.

Glad we could meet in the middle as always 🙄
 

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And I gladly pointed out you're the one to initiate the school yard level bully fest without hesitation.

Glad we could meet in the middle as always 🙄
...by pointing out that the people who disagree with you don't actually all agree with each other on much of anything? :lol:

Sure man, you do you. You're definitely the victim here. :lol:
 

Glades

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Our entire justice system is based around a "moral law". It is morally wrong to steal so we punish thieves, it is morally wrong to kill therefore we punish killers, it is morally wrong to rape so we punish rapists, etc. The "moral law" that dictates right from wrong in our legal system is based on judeo-christian values. Where do you guys want to draw the line? Should we not punish murderers, thieves and rapists because this is christians trying to shove their values down your throat?
 

Drew

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Our entire justice system is based around a "moral law". It is morally wrong to steal so we punish thieves, it is morally wrong to kill therefore we punish killers, it is morally wrong to rape so we punish rapists, etc. The "moral law" that dictates right from wrong in our legal system is based on judeo-christian values. Where do you guys want to draw the line? Should we not punish murderers, thieves and rapists because this is christians trying to shove their values down your throat?
Our entire justice system is based on the US Constitution, which expressly separates church and state. Your whole understanding of our criminal justice system is flawed.
 


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