US Political Discussion: 2020 Presidential Race Edition (Rules in OP)

Discussion in 'Politics & Current Events' started by mongey, Mar 2, 2016.

  1. ExileMetal

    ExileMetal SS.org Regular

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    Again, with emphasis, as I mentioned it’s important to understand the term implicit. You can totally not be a racist and wear a MAGA hat, but it’s also completely irrelevant. Cognitive dissonance is a real thing, and admitting it is hard, especially when it forces you to compromise on something you might be passionate about.
     
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  2. narad

    narad Progressive metal and politics

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    Yup, when we think "Nazi" we all immediately must recall those two abhorrent atrocities: the holocaust and the single-payer healthcare system. I once visited the concentration camp at Auschwitz. It was hard to imagine that we arrived there traveling on roads that were once paid for by taxing the collective German people. Even today I believe those roads are not privately owned and operated, a testament to the continued legacy of the Nazi party.
     
  3. MetalHex

    MetalHex SS.org Regular

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    ^ Literally what I said almost word for word.

    So then how do they define left wing extremism? Let me google it real quickly. ::reading outloud while going down the list::, public opinion on right wing extremism, dont want that.....former extremists, no dont want that.....Organizational dynamics of far right hate groups, dont want that....The rise of far right extremism, no not that......terrorist attacks by religious and right wing extremism, nope......keep scrolling down.....the threat of white nationalism. Oh, I guess left wing extremism doesn't exist. Phew! For a second there I thought that the DHS was gonna mention at least Antifa. Nope.

    It seems that the biased media's propaganda is in full swing, to the point where I google, "How does the United States Department of Homeland Security define left-wing extremism", and I dont just come up with absolutely nothing, but instead come up with a list of links talking about right-wing extremism.

    Was it always this way? I guess I still cant wrap my head around how a member of a socialist party (by definition. Whether they practiced socialism or not is beside their own name), can be a right winger.

    Did you mean to say, "republican doesn't mean conservative as democrat doesn't necessarily mean liberal"? Because people tend to make that mistake. Anyways, replace all the times I said democrat, with liberal. My bad.
     
  4. MaxOfMetal

    MaxOfMetal Likes trem wankery. Super Moderator

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    Emphasis on almost.

    I gave you the full complete definition, including the part that you like glossing over/omitting for some reason.

    Here it is again:

    "a person who shows or feels discrimination or prejudice against people of other races, or who believes that a particular race is superior to another"


    Again, you're misunderstanding what defines "left" and "right" within the context it's being used.

    When they say "right wing" they mean the part of historic right wing politics that represents the reduction of central government as well as the racial and class exclusionary aspects.

    They're not calling out "Republicans" or "Conservatives" in the sense of mainstream two party American politics.

    Are you implying that the Republican established DHS, and the current Republican controlled DHS is somehow brainwashed by the media? :scratch:

    For the record there are a number of DHS white papers available that mention left wing extremism, they're available publicly in PDF.

    Modern Neo-Nazi and adjacent groups are not socialist. Again, even if the original Third Reich was socialist (it wasn't) they are not who you see marching playing Nazi-dress up. They are different groups.

    Republican. Democrat. Conservative. Liberal. Right. Left.

    Those are all terms with various definitions and context around them. Believe it or not, there's a lot of overlap and nuance depending on specific issues and how different ideologies look to resolve them.
     
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  5. MetalHex

    MetalHex SS.org Regular

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    Yeah that's the definition of racist.

    Definition of racism

    1: a belief that race is the primary determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race

    The english language is funny. If you call someone a racist, it can mean two different things. If you accuse someone of racism, it means just one thing, which dpes not include discrimination or prejudice.
     
  6. MaxOfMetal

    MaxOfMetal Likes trem wankery. Super Moderator

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    Cherry picking again.

    "prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism directed against someone of a different race based on the belief that one's own race is superior"


    https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/racism

    It's even listed under the MW definition you're pulling from (see "3"):

    https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/racism
     
  7. MetalHex

    MetalHex SS.org Regular

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  8. MaxOfMetal

    MaxOfMetal Likes trem wankery. Super Moderator

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    Happens to the best of us. :lol:
     
  9. Randy

    Randy Full on Friendship!™ Super Moderator

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    And the worst!
     
  10. MetalHex

    MetalHex SS.org Regular

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    I guess I'm not understanding what you (they) mean then. To the first part of your first quote, dont republicans and conservatives both historically and present, believe in a smaller central government? How can they seperate the history and todays American politics then?
     
  11. MaxOfMetal

    MaxOfMetal Likes trem wankery. Super Moderator

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    Current American Republicans do too many things that are antithetical to "smaller government". Things like farm and fossil fuel subsidies and limiting access to abortion services. Those both fall under more socialist and totalitarian policies.

    They are also not fiscally conservative by any means either.

    Again, words mean certain things.

    The more you read up on what right and left has classically meant the more it'll make some sense.

    I highly recommend reading up on this more, especially if politics is such an important part of your personality.
     
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  12. Drew

    Drew Forum MVP

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    First, thanks man. Fucking sucks, but at least I'm not drooling on myself in a hospital bed somewhere. It's just going to be a long couple weeks, and I'll say this - the level of pain associated with the broken bone and all the associated muscle damage/tightness is WAY beyond what the tylenol and ibuprofen is capable of handling. :lol: It'll be a long couple weeks.

    To your analogy, I don't agree at all. By wearing a particular skirt or top or whatever, a woman is almost CERTAINLY not trying to broadcast a message, but the "you shouldn't have worn that" argument basically says that if a man received a message anyway, it's her fault he wasn't able to control herself, so it's her responsibility to proactively not broadcast a certain message about her sexuality by whatever means necessary. A man (or woman) in a MAGA hat, on the other hand, is almost definitively TRYING to broadcast a message, barring the slight outside possibility that he just is totally unfamiliar with the slogan and grabbed the nearest hat to keep his head covered. It's an active choice, whereas "you shouldn't go out like that" is an exhortation to woman to actively make sure they're not even open to the interpretation that they're broadcasting something; it's aggressively passive. A MAGA hat is broadcasting something with a megaphone, "don't go out dressed like that" is being paranoid you'll be misinterpreted as broadcasting something you weren't.

    I mean, a MAGA hat is a symbol in the strictest philosophical sense. You clearly agree that there are symbols out there that convey meaning so clearly, and that meaning is so wrong, that there's something intrinsically wrong with displaying them. A swastika is the example we started with here, but a KKK robe would be another good one in this context too. Is it ever ok to wear a swastika? Is it ever ok to wear a KKK robe? Are there symbols in this world that it is not ever ok to display? I don't think it's at all controversial to answer that in the affirmative.

    I wouldn't exactly equate a MAGA hat with a swastika, I think - we haven't experienced a genocide in Trump's name - but I'd say these days I see a MAGA hat as pretty equivalent with a Confederate flag. Based on what Trump's shown himself to be, openly broadcasting your support for a politician who wants to block all immigration from Muslim or "brown" countries and has advisors like Steven Miller and (formerly) Steve Bannon, is a pretty clear indication that, at a minimum, you're at least willing to look past racism. And that's both conserning, and something that I think every single time I see someone wearing one.

    @MetalHex - if you're seriously trying to argue Nazis were liberals, I'm going to suggest you don't have the political or historical awareness to be participating in this thread. Any decent history textbook should be enough to bring you up to speed, and will probably even dedicate a sentence or two to the irony that the National Socialist party was neither national nor socialist.
     
  13. Drew

    Drew Forum MVP

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    Excellent, excellent, excellent post.
     
  14. thraxil

    thraxil cylon

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    That's my take as well. Here's a personal anecdote: I grew up in rural Maine back before the internet was quite as ubiquitous. Maine is a very white state and my hometown was no exception. It's also very northern and none of us up there had a very nuanced understanding of southern history and politics and symbols. In high school I had a Pantera shirt that had a confederate flag on it. No one in my home town at the time would've batted an eye. Then I went to college. My second year, I had a roommate who was a black guy from Virginia. I think the Pantera shirt had not really been in my wardrobe for a while for whatever reason but at some point (probably when I went home on a break and did laundry) I pulled it out and started wearing it again. My roommate saw me wearing it and pulled me aside. He basically said "dude, I know you pretty well and I don't think you are racist or mean anything by it, but where I'm from, black people see a white guy wearing a confederate flag and to them it is a symbol of hate." So I packed it away and never wore it again. I only needed to be told once. Now, any time confederate flags come up online, you'll have a bunch of people jumping in going "no, it's not racist, it's just a southern pride thing!" and defending it in a thousand different ways like that. And to them, probably it doesn't mean anything racist. But to a lot of people, it *is* a reminder and symbol of racism and it hurts them to see it. If you know that a symbol you are using is hurtful to someone and you are told repeatedly and you continue to use it, at some point, you own that hurt.

    I was in Japan a few years ago and the Harajuku kids at the time had a fascination with nazi uniforms and imagery. It was pretty surreal to see swastika armbands mixed in with babydoll dresses and crazy hair. People that I talked to explained that WWII (especially the European side of things) was not heavily covered in schools so most of those kids really just had no idea about the holocaust or how those symbols would be interpreted by westerners. To them it was purely an aesthetic element.

    No one is saying that people shouldn't be allowed to wear MAGA hats or that a MAGA hat is as extreme a symbol as a swastika (or even a confederate flag). I think you just have to be aware that what you are intending to communicate might not be what is received by everyone. If you walk around Boston wearing a Yankees hat, and you get some shit, you can't pretend to be surprised and claim total innocence.
     
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  15. zappatton2

    zappatton2 SS.org Regular

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    Is there an extremist left-wing group in the States though? I mean, Antifa gets a lot of grief from the right for being supposedly the equally bad other side of the coin, but Antifa is a small group of people who only organize to counter-protest right-wing extremism (antifa literally means anti-fascist). It doesn't hold a torch (no pun intended) to the rise of right-wing hate groups across North America and in Europe. The Canadian security agency CSIS has acknowledged the threat, there was a mass killing of Muslims here in Canada only two years ago, which was fueled by online right-wing extremism, and it is faaaar more responsible for ideology-driven killing sprees in North America than any other potential group. It's hardly propaganda to note a warranted threat.

    The States has had a year-over-year substantial increase in hate crime incidents since the election of Trump. We've seen similar rises here. I'm 100% for free speech, but the deceptive bull shite Trump trafficks in provides fertile manure to feed this proliferation of extremists. They are fundamentally more destructive to public order and safety than Antifa could hope to be, egregious individual examples aside.

    The highest office in the country should be held to account, not for being conservative (not that they are, in the classical sense), but for passively enabling (some might say actively encouraging) what amounts to (**what is**) domestic terrorism.
     
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  16. MetalHex

    MetalHex SS.org Regular

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    Here's the difference though, a Yankees hat represents one thing: the NYY. Whereas a MAGA hat, could represent many things, many ideas, or just one idea. Or like someone said, absolutely nothing.

    How about try being a better person and not making a pre-judgement based on someones hat, instead of making excuses for those judemental types of people who throw shit at people.

    Like, it almost seems as if it's ok to pass judgement on someone wearing a maga hat, but its not ok to be prejudice on a middle-eastern looking dude with a garment wrapped around his head (which, neither is ok). But if yu pass judgment on that middle eastern guy you will be deemed as a racist,byliberal SJW types and possibly have your car flipped over with every window bashed in. For arguments sake, that dude outta realize hes gonna get some shit for walking around Ground Zero NY while wearing that on his head, because you know, people were and are cautious as fuck since 9/11, right? No. Thats the wrong attitude.

    We all understand how some sports fans can become very rabid, and extreme. They have so much team pride, and have such a tribal attitude, about a team sport. I consider myself a die-hard, hardcore Yankees fan. And I hate the Boston Red Sox. I feel very strongly about the Yankees. But at the end of the day, I really dont care what Red Sox fans think about me. I know not everyone feels the way I do or agrees with everything. I am not one of those tribal types. If someone slapped a Red Sox bumper sticker on my car, I would be more mad at the fact that someone thought that they could touch or put something on my car, rather than the fact that its a sticker of the team I hate. Point being, I wouldnt feel ashamed if someone saw it and assumed I was a Red Sox fan.No matter how strongly I feel about Yankees baseball. That wouldnt bother me one bit. I wouldn't care any less. I mean, when you drive down the street and pull up next to a car, do you turn down your music because you are ashamed of what someone might think of you? My point, you worry too much what people think about you.

    Yes I am comparing sports to politics because its the same tribalism/almost-seige mentallity underlying them both that crosses both platforms. Its ok to feel strongly about something, especially politics, but too passionate can be dangerous to everyone else and yourself.
     
  17. narad

    narad Progressive metal and politics

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    You don't hang around NY much, do you?
     
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  18. zappatton2

    zappatton2 SS.org Regular

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    You're right about exactly one thing. That is very much the wrong attitude.
     
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  19. bostjan

    bostjan MicroMetal Contributor

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    Any time a person sets out into a public area, they are communicating. You communicate by how you dress. If I see a guy wearing a turban, I might get the message that he's likely Sikh, since statistically, most turban donning people are Sikhs. Could be a Sufi Muslim Scholar, but that's actually less likely. Or it could just be any random dude who likes turbans. Almost all terrorists wear clothes to blend in, though. The stereotype of turban guy being a terrorist is pretty much entirely based on pure ignorance.

    What does the MAGA hat communicate? It says different things to different people, obviously, but the first time I encountered one in the wild, it was a dude who was itching to start heated arguments with people, (and succeeded, not to imply that it doesn't take two to tango) so that's the generalization I might be tempted to make.
     
  20. Spaced Out Ace

    Spaced Out Ace 0 0 1 0 0 6 5 0 3\

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    Oh Christ. Anyone see the kerfuffle that went dont with the MAGA hats and the dude spitting on some chick in aforementioned hats? Plus other ridiculous shit. Not sure anyone is a winner in that one.
     

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