US Political Discussion: 2020 Presidential Race Edition (Rules in OP)

Discussion in 'Politics & Current Events' started by mongey, Mar 2, 2016.

  1. efiltsohg

    efiltsohg SS.org Regular

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    Sports are a joke anyway and I'm fully in favor of transgendered cheaters dismantling all their records (whether it's male bodies in women's sports, or female bodies jacked up on steroids in men's)
     
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  2. Ordacleaphobia

    Ordacleaphobia Shameless Contrarian

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    Christ this thread moves fast.
    Something that I think a lot of people are forgetting is that a huge swathe of Trump's "base" are not political people.
    They supported the man because he was a big "Fuck you" to the establishment. Most of them probably don't know what any of his policies are aside from "build the wall" and "drain the swamp." I'd say I disagree with the notion that the wall is inherently racist but we've already butted heads before on that.

    Food for thought though for the folks in the "red hat = racist" camp...a rule for me, and another for thee; discrimination is ok when I do it....

    Yeah, I kind of agree. A ton of places have unisex bathrooms already and have for decades, I'm not sure why that's an issue.
    The part that I kind of hang up on is for instances like schools, public parks, etc; places likely to have a lot of children.

    Yeah, that is weird. Who's doing that? If we we're just talking about personality I'm Yang gang all the way.
    I said it was a facet. The same way it is for every candidate. Whereas Clinton's personality hurt her, I think Tulsi's is a benefit. That's all.

    And who thinks like this, anyway? Who has that kind of cold, calculated thought process? But since we're on the subject:
    >She's apologized for her old anti-LGBT comments (which were made well over 10 years ago)
    >During the time frame that she was opposed to gay marriage and the like; so was most of the democratic party.
    >Her father raised her to be very socially conservative. Similar to @possumkiller. He came around, right? Why can't others?
    >She has a 100% voting record for pro-LGBT legislation, and has co-sponsored multiple pro-LGBT bills.
    >She's been endorsed by the Human Rights Campaign.
    >She's a member of the house LGBT equality caucus.

    What about you? Were you never a dick at any point in your life? Should people hold that against you indefinitely?
    Who's this other candidate, by the way? If you've got a name I'll check them out.
     
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  3. Drew

    Drew Forum MVP

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    In reverse order, that's just another version of the tolerance paradox, and I don't buy that at all. Suggesting that being opposed to intolerance is itself a form of intolerance itself is, with all respect, bullshit, and that argument is a logical fallacy that I'm just going to tell you to look up deconstructions of that argument yourself, because one I have faith you actually will, and two, because typing with a broken collarbone fucking hurts. :lol:

    I'll concede "drain the swamp," but I think you'll have a hard time convincing me that "build the wall" isn't a racist policy. Build a wall on the Mexican border and make Mexico pay for it, yet not a word about the Canadian border? That's also ignoring his Muslim ban, which was his other major campaign promise, as well as his subsequent actions - NOT draining the swamp, passing a corporate tax cut that resulted in most Americans getting a lower refund (which the size of their refund is the most immediate aspect of tax policy that most Americans see), "lots of good people on both sides" of Charlottesville, and a trade war that's done some serious damage to farmers in the American heartland. There hasn't been much in Trump's record that's actually been helpful to average Americans and his support has plummeted since inauguration. His base has essentially been stripped to its core.

    There's also the fact that at this point, it's hardly a fringe interpretation that a red MAGA hat is going to be interpreted as a sign of support for anti-immigrant, white nationalist politics, so anyone still choosing to wear one is fully aware of how they're likely to be perceived. Speaking personally, if I was aware that by doing something I was likely to be perceived as sypathetic to white nationalism, you can be damned sure that I wouldn't be doing it.
     
    Last edited: May 31, 2019
  4. efiltsohg

    efiltsohg SS.org Regular

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  5. Ordacleaphobia

    Ordacleaphobia Shameless Contrarian

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    Ouch; sorry to hear that. Hope you're doing alright.

    Like I said, we've clashed over all of that stuff before; and I don't know about you, but I don't really have anything new to bring to that discussion.

    I will say though that to those types of folks I described, it absolutely isn't. Slogan people. All of that stuff is "fake news."
    You're very, very steeped in national politics. You can't help but see political shit everywhere you go. I don't know about you, but I know that I frequently have to remind myself that a lot of the people I talk to simply just don't care about a lot of the things that I do, and that if I want to have a conversation with them about Y, I have to explain X to them first.
    Bubba is not. Bubba doesn't care. He knows the slogans though. Doesn't watch the news. And I'd bet you all of the persecution over the hat just makes him double down on them.

    I also don't think that statement is a version of the tolerance paradox.
    The tolerance paradox is predicated on there being objective intolerance, and that isn't what we're talking about. We're talking about a goddamn hat.
    If I put a hat on, it doesn't instantly make me an intolerant person. If I passed you on the street, you wouldn't know jack about my politics or ethics. Instead, you're going to judge me and assume what I do and do not tolerate based on what I looked like. If I see a guy with a MAGA hat on and go "Oh hey, you must be a racist!" how is that different from me pointing to a black man and saying "Hey! I bet you abandoned your child and are on your way to get some fried chicken!"

    In neither instance do I know anything about the individual aside from surface level visible features.
    It's stereotyping. Stereotyping is wrong.

    You wouldn't be wrong to infer "supports the president." Going deeper than that requires making assumptions and the moment you do that congratulations, you're judging people.
    If you're the type that equates "supports the president" with "is a racist" then ok; more power to you, but you aren't any better than the guy that equates "is black" with "receives welfare." You both have a superiority complex, deem your own opinions to be worth more than those of dissenters, and are fundamentally opposed to obvious objective truth. I don't think most of you are that guy, so I'm somewhat surprised at the vigor with which you're making this assertion.

    To come full circle, I'd be a fool to state that nobody that dons the hat is a racist. In fact, I would agree with the notion that the percentage of racists among hat-wearers is likely noticeably above the national average. But that does not mean that all of them are and it does not mean that it's right to lump them all in with them.
     
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  6. vilk

    vilk Very Regular

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    You're not implying that some people are born with MAGA hats, right? Because FYI black people can't take it off. They also didn't put it on.
     
  7. possumkiller

    possumkiller Square Dance Caller

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    Trans people do put it on and take it off. Are we lumping them in with hat wearers?

    His point isn't that hat wearers are or aren't racist. His point is making blanket statements like "All red hats are racist" is no better than the racist red hats.
     
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  8. PunkBillCarson

    PunkBillCarson SS.org Regular

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    Fucking typical. :lol: When it's a valid point, it doesn't matter 'cuz sports suck anyways.

    Well you know, maybe to you, but not to the person who uses sports to clear their minds, have fun, escape from IRL bullshit. So fuck THOSE people, right? Soooooo tolerant...
     
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  9. possumkiller

    possumkiller Square Dance Caller

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    I tend to agree that until we advance further in the science of gender that it's basically a bucket of worms and we've all got to take a bite.
    However, it could have been useful for me to be female when I was in the army so I could ace the fuck out of the PT test.
     
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  10. PunkBillCarson

    PunkBillCarson SS.org Regular

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    Even the girl who got her skull broken by someone who until 2006 lived their lives as a man or else risk being called a bigot? Need I remind you that that is a rare injury in MMA even amongst the men's divisions. This kind of shit didn't even happen when people were testing 16:1 testosterone ratios.
     
    Last edited: May 31, 2019
  11. Ordacleaphobia

    Ordacleaphobia Shameless Contrarian

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    Yeah, choice doesn't play a part in it and I don't know where you got that from.
    The point is that making a judgement about someone's character based off of something visual is wrong, full stop.

    I get where you're going with this, with the implication that the wearer of the hat may be 'inviting it' by putting it on, whereas the black man in our example didn't get the chance to make that decision; but the onus is still on you not to stereotype them. If skin pigmentation was a controllable feature, would those statements be ok then? Of course not.
     
  12. possumkiller

    possumkiller Square Dance Caller

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    Yeah it sucks but what can you do? She can't legally complain about it or else she's an intolerant hateful fucking nazi. Nobody wants to be a hateful intolerant fucking nazi. People that don't want trans guys beating the fuck out of women in sports want ISIS to win. Everybody knows that.

    Anyway, seriously wtf can we do about it right now? Obviously there is going to have to be some new rules made but I think most people are just scratching their head.
     
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  13. PunkBillCarson

    PunkBillCarson SS.org Regular

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    https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/3b7j3j/fallon-fox-is-a-woman-get-over-it-925
     
  14. PunkBillCarson

    PunkBillCarson SS.org Regular

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    That's the problem though. Recognizing those differences and not wanting to have someone have an advantage like that over you isn't bigoted and people refuse to see that and that is a problem.
     
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  15. MaxOfMetal

    MaxOfMetal Likes trem wankery. Super Moderator

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    Fair enough, it was just the primary point, other than policy, that you brought up.

    I guess I do. :lol:

    Politicians are to provide a service, and the quality of said service comes before all else.

    I don't choose doctors or plumbers because I like them as people. I choose them because they are the most qualified and capable to do the job I need them to do.

    Cool. Doesn't get rid of the baggage.

    So? Doesn't make it fine

    The jury is still out on ol' Possum. :lol:

    But seriously, being raised in what can often be described as a hateful cult can do things to you.

    I'm glad that she seems to have come around.

    She's only served in Congress since 2013. That's just like three bills.

    She also doesn't have "100%", given her opposition to HHB 1024.

    Listen, I think she's a fine candidate. I'd take her over all of the GOP any day of the week, but measured against other primary candidates, she'd maybe be my fourth or fifth pick between those that might have a shot.

    I'm not perfect, but I'm not running for public office.

    We should try to elect the best.

    I never supported curtailing people's rights to be who they are or supported medical torture.

    Had I done that, it would probably worth mentioning if I decided to run for high public office.

    Bernie Sanders and Elizabeth Warren.

    If you look at both their histories they were doing the progressive thing, just like Gabbard, before it was cool. In fact Gabbard even supported Sanders on his last primary race.

    Are they perfect? Not really. There's no such thing as an absolutely perfect candidate, but I feel their experience and voting history, along with a few other things that I won't go into for brevity's sake, put them ahead of Gabbard as far as what candidate I think is best.

    For the record, I'll take Tulsi over Uncle Joe any day of the week.
     
  16. Drew

    Drew Forum MVP

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    ...but, my point is, if someone puts on a MAGA hat, they're a supporter of President Trump, and President Trump has pushed xenophobic policies since he's come to the White House, as well as made a number of statements that are either extremely suggestive of racism, or supportive of white nationalism, so there's strong evidence that Trump himself is a racist in his personal actions and legislative actions. So, if someone is choosing to signify support for an unpopular, extremely divisive probable racist, is it at least a reasonable conclusion to guess that there's a high liklihood that the wearer, as a supporter of a racist, is likely themselves a racist?

    I mean, sure, it falls short of definitive proof... But, yeah, it has a fairly high probability of being a correct assumption, and I'm not overly interested in wasting time splitting hairs, especially since anyone concerned with whether or not they might be mistaken for a racist could just take the damned hat off. :lol:

    Shoulder is... eh, it'll be ok. I had a driver cut me off last wednesday while I was out on my road bike, leaving town for a training ride. Guy saw a gap and took a left hand turn across traffic without checking the bike lane, and pulled right in front of me while I was coming up at around 25mph. I had just enough time to swear and grab the brakes before I caught the back of his car over the passanger side rear wheel well with my shoulder at nearly full speed. It fucking hurt. :lol:
     
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  17. PunkBillCarson

    PunkBillCarson SS.org Regular

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    ^Shit dude! Well I'm glad you're okay at least, but seriously fuck that guy!
     
  18. Drew

    Drew Forum MVP

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    He was super apologetic, so I believe he legitimately wasn't aware I was there and it wasn't malicious or anything. At the same time, he was negligent as fuck, stuck around to give me a name and number but left while I was calling 911 (I had a picture of his car and plates by then) and wasn't there for the police report (which honestly doesn't do him any favors unless he'd been drinking or something), and considering I was a vehicle moving straight in a marked bike lane and he was turning across traffic, he was pretty clearly at fault in the accident. And I was on a VERY expensive road bike, lol.

    A week later I'm basically alternating between not being in much pain at all, with occasional waves of so much pain I just have to sit there and grit my teeth for a minute or two until it passes, but for the most part it's nothing I cant tune out, and it should heal cleanly based on where it broke. And it could have gone a LOT worse - had he turned a second later and caught me head on I'd probably be drooling on myself in a hospital bed somewhere. :lol:
     
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  19. MetalHex

    MetalHex SS.org Regular

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    How do you define nazi if its not a pro-socialist? Because it seems that you have made up your own definition.

    You realize this buzzword is the equivalent of "libtard snowflake" don't you?

    HUUUUUUH????
     
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  20. MetalHex

    MetalHex SS.org Regular

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    People would hit you before so much as look at you! Do you think he was looking at his phone?
     

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