Tuner post height advice.

[M.U.Y.A.]

Anyone with great knowledge or luthier skills please help me out!

I recently bought 2 sets gotoh locking tuners, staggered, in order to make one 6 in line locking NON staggered set on my explorer guitar. The original non locking tuners from factory posts are all about 2/4 quarter inch long bass to treble and the sets of the locking tuners I just bought are about 1/4 inch long bass side. So the low E,A, and D string are way below the nut.

My questions is, will this cause any issue in buzzing? Will I need to do a whole setup to accommodate the new post height? Or just find a different set of tuners? I would appreciate the help. Thanks!

 

[bostjan]

Anyone with great knowledge or luthier skills please help me out!

I recently bought 2 sets gotoh locking tuners, staggered, in order to make one 6 in line locking NON staggered set on my explorer guitar. The original non locking tuners from factory posts are all about 2/4 quarter inch long bass to treble and the sets of the locking tuners I just bought are about 1/4 inch long bass side. So the low E,A, and D string are way below the nut.

My questions is, will this cause any issue in buzzing? Will I need to do a whole setup to accommodate the new post height? Or just find a different set of tuners? I would appreciate the help. Thanks!

I don't see how that would cause string buzz. The straight part of the string is between the nut and the saddle, so the only things that should affect string buzz are saddle height, nut height, fret height, and neck angle.

Other than that, I don't really feel like I understood what you were saying about your intent. You want to make a six in line nonstaggered set of tuners from two 3+3 staggered sets? I don't see how you could do that, but best of luck!

 

[M.U.Y.A.]

I don't see how that would cause string buzz. The straight part of the string is between the nut and the saddle, so the only things that should affect string buzz are saddle height, nut height, fret height, and neck angle.

Other than that, I don't really feel like I understood what you were saying about your intent. You want to make a six in line nonstaggered set of tuners from two 3+3 staggered sets? I don't see how you could do that, but best of luck!

Hey there thanks for the response. I bought two 6 in line staggered sets (pictures below) to make one 6 in line non staggered set. So the 1st, 2nd, and 3rd tunings posts were not long enough to function which is why I bought 2 sets so that I could use the the low bass tuning posts only.

 

[bostjan]

Can you tell me why you don't just use the staggered set?

Does the guitar have string trees?

If it were me, unless there is some sort of exta special issue with the guitar, I would just replace the nonstaggered tuning machines with the staggered ones.

 

[M.U.Y.A.]

Can you tell me why you don't just use the staggered set?

Does the guitar have string trees?

If it were me, unless there is some sort of exta special issue with the guitar, I would just replace the nonstaggered tuning machines with the staggered ones.

Well I tried and it didn’t seem to go through the hole all the way enough for me to put the screw and washer on. I’ll try again though and double check.

Also I thought staggered were mainly for flat style headstocks. I heard a lot of people talk about nut angle break being issues if the height was changed on a certain style headstock and I’m not well versed in this stuff. Trying to learn how to setup my own stuff now.

my guitar was set up great with all the same string post height with the original tuners so I was just trying to have them all stay matched in height.

 

[bostjan]

Well I tried and it didn’t seem to go through the hole all the way enough for me to put the screw and washer on. I’ll try again though and double check.

Also I thought staggered were mainly for flat style headstocks. I heard a lot of people talk about nut angle break being issues if the height was changed on a certain style headstock and I’m not well versed in this stuff. Trying to learn how to setup my own stuff now.

my guitar was set up great with all the same string post height with the original tuners so I was just trying to have them all stay matched in height.

According to the drawing, there is 1.5 mm difference, but that is only in the position of the post hole and length of the post. The post that you screw the nuts onto should all be the same length.

You can use staggered tuners on both flat and angled back headstocks. The things is that they are more strongly recommended for flat headstocks. Having a tiny bit more angle down between the nut and the tuner shouldn't be a problem.

So, if the wood on the headstock is too thick to get the nuts screwed on, then I don't see why you'd be able to install the tuners where the tuning posts are 1.5 mm taller either. I'd be a little surprised if the headstock wood was so thick that the post holes interfere with the nuts that hold the tuner in place, but I suppose it is possible.

Could it be that there is something catching that is preventing the tuner from seating properly?

Also, looks like you need to charge your phone.

 

[M.U.Y.A.]

Yeah my phone is always running low. Lol. Charged it now though.

So the holes in the headstock are fine. They accommodate the tuners. What I meant to say was that as I was putting the washer back on to fasten on the face of the headstock, the post were so low it didn’t seem like I was going to be able to fasten and put a string through. Maybe I should have made sure of that though before assuming but the post was barley making it through to the face side of the headsrock.

I know I’m probably not explaining myself clearly but it’s all I can say I don’t know how to explain myself properly. but okay I’ll try to set the staggered set in again today.

 

[Stephen White/Guitar Tech]

Yeah my phone is always running low. Lol. Charged it now though.

So the holes in the headstock are fine. They accommodate the tuners. What I meant to say was that as I was putting the washer back on to fasten on the face of the headstock, the post were so low it didn’t seem like I was going to be able to fasten and put a string through. Maybe I should have made sure of that though before assuming but the post was barley making it through to the face side of the headstock.

I know I’m probably not explaining myself clearly but it’s all I can say I don’t know how to explain myself properly. but okay I’ll try to set the staggered set in again today.

I just noticed this thread (sorry to 'arrive late to the party'...) - have you sorted your problem out, yet? I'm a repair-tech (www.guitartech.us) and I'm very familiar with this specific problem.
First - I have to say, ordering the correct Gotoh tuners for a particular application is extremely confusing! Gotoh tuners are very good quality (I'm not dissing them) but they don't make choosing the right tuner easy! Their catalog is very clear, but only after you've learned to understand 'Gotoh-speak', and to interpret their little symbols! (it took me years to figure it out...) If you're going to go to the trouble to order a special set of tuners, I'd buy "SGS510Z" tuners from their top-of-the-line 'SG510' group (or at least something from their mid-level 'SG381' group) - they're more expensive, but well worth it. The 'SG360' tuners are only a 1:14 tuning-ratio - OK, but not great...

If you just want a good-quality set of locking tuners, that should fit your guitar's headstock, the easiest solution is probably these Grover 'Mini Roto-Grip' tuners.
Here's a link: https://grotro.com/product/min-roto-grip-locking-rotomatics505-series/

I still think that the Gotoh '510'-series are the best choice, but the Grovers are perfectly fine. Anyway, on we go...

(Here's a link to the relevant page in the Gotoh catalog)

Sealed Gear Type アーカイブ - G-GOTOH

g-gotoh.com

The 'SG' ('sealed gear') -series Gotoh tuners have unusually short string-post heights, because they were originally designed for Fender-style flat headstocks. (As compared with the Schaller tuners that Gibson used for many years, which are usually too long for most Fender-type headstocks...) A lot of guitars with angled headstocks have slightly-thicker headstocks, because (I'm guessing) the Gibson-type instruments usually have this thicker headstock, and these manufacturers are copying Gibson's engineering, even though they're making a six-in-line design.

(Here's a link to the 'SGS510Z' page in the Gotoh catalog)

SGS510Z - G-GOTOH

Gear Ratio 1:18

g-gotoh.com

To use these Gotoh tuners, you need to use (a) their 'standard' post models, which are just-barely tall enough to work well, OR (b) use their "H.A.P." ('height-adjustable post') models (which also come in two body-sizes, AND two heights per size - very confusing) and use the longest string-posts they offer in this HAP group. These 'long' HAP tuners can go taller than the 'standard' posts (which is the main reason to use them).
If you want locking tuners as well, the Gotoh models are their "HAPM" group, which are both height-adjustable and have the old-style Gotoh 'Magnum-Lock' locking system. (This ingenious locking-system was developed to get around Sperzel's patents, when tSperzel Tuners first introduced their 'Trim-Lok' locking tuners to the world.)

I hope this helps - sorry for it's excessive length...

Stephen White / Guitar Tech
(510) 548-8370
[email protected]

 

[odibrom]

In my experience (I'm no luthier), tilt back headstocks - Gibson style - don't need staggered tuners. Staggered tuners are a way to increase the strings' break angle at the nut for Fender style headstocks, so the lower strings have higher ("normal" height) tuner posts and treble strings will have smaller tuner posts. Staggered tuners may or may not dismiss string trees...

Tuner post height does not affect string buzz, as @bostjan already said, but may affect tuning stability because of the break angle at the nut.

To me, tilt back headstocks are better than Fender ones, because they immediately solve the strings' break angle problem and one doesn't need to source specialty tuners (staggered ones) if in need to replace the original ones.

 

[M.U.Y.A.]

In my experience (I'm no luthier), tilt back headstocks - Gibson style - don't need staggered tuners. Staggered tuners are a way to increase the strings' break angle at the nut for Fender style headstocks, so the lower strings have higher ("normal" height) tuner posts and treble strings will have smaller tuner posts. Staggered tuners may or may not dismiss string trees...

Tuner post height does not affect string buzz, as @bostjan already said, but may affect tuning stability because of the break angle at the nut.

To me, tilt back headstocks are better than Fender ones, because they immediately solve the strings' break angle problem and one doesn't need to source specialty tuners (staggered ones) if in need to replace the original ones.

I appreciate the input. I was worried about something going out of wack but I didn’t have enough experience to know. I’m still testing out my options.

 

[M.U.Y.A.]

I just noticed this thread (sorry to 'arrive late to the party'...) - have you sorted your problem out, yet? I'm a repair-tech (www.guitartech.us) and I'm very familiar with this specific problem.
First - I have to say, ordering the correct Gotoh tuners for a particular application is extremely confusing! Gotoh tuners are very good quality (I'm not dissing them) but they don't make choosing the right tuner easy! Their catalog is very clear, but only after you've learned to understand 'Gotoh-speak', and to interpret their little symbols! (it took me years to figure it out...) If you're going to go to the trouble to order a special set of tuners, I'd buy "SGS510Z" tuners from their top-of-the-line 'SG510' group (or at least something from their mid-level 'SG381' group) - they're more expensive, but well worth it. The 'SG360' tuners are only a 1:14 tuning-ratio - OK, but not great...

If you just want a good-quality set of locking tuners, that should fit your guitar's headstock, the easiest solution is probably these Grover 'Mini Roto-Grip' tuners.
Here's a link: https://grotro.com/product/min-roto-grip-locking-rotomatics505-series/

I still think that the Gotoh '510'-series are the best choice, but the Grovers are perfectly fine. Anyway, on we go...

(Here's a link to the relevant page in the Gotoh catalog)

Sealed Gear Type アーカイブ - G-GOTOH

g-gotoh.com

The 'SG' ('sealed gear') -series Gotoh tuners have unusually short string-post heights, because they were originally designed for Fender-style flat headstocks. (As compared with the Schaller tuners that Gibson used for many years, which are usually too long for most Fender-type headstocks...) A lot of guitars with angled headstocks have slightly-thicker headstocks, because (I'm guessing) the Gibson-type instruments usually have this thicker headstock, and these manufacturers are copying Gibson's engineering, even though they're making a six-in-line design.

(Here's a link to the 'SGS510Z' page in the Gotoh catalog)

SGS510Z - G-GOTOH

Gear Ratio 1:18

g-gotoh.com

To use these Gotoh tuners, you need to use (a) their 'standard' post models, which are just-barely tall enough to work well, OR (b) use their "H.A.P." ('height-adjustable post') models (which also come in two body-sizes, AND two heights per size - very confusing) and use the longest string-posts they offer in this HAP group. These 'long' HAP tuners can go taller than the 'standard' posts (which is the main reason to use them).
If you want locking tuners as well, the Gotoh models are their "HAPM" group, which are both height-adjustable and have the old-style Gotoh 'Magnum-Lock' locking system. (This ingenious locking-system was developed to get around Sperzel's patents, when tSperzel Tuners first introduced their 'Trim-Lok' locking tuners to the world.)

I hope this helps - sorry for it's excessive length...

Stephen White / Guitar Tech
(510) 548-8370
[email protected]

I really appreciate the post. I had a hard time finding black locking tuners. Let alone ones that had a 90 degree screw hole, I believe is the angle I might be wrong about that though. No one seems to make black locking tuners.

Sperzels are atrocious for the same 1:14 ratio they offer so it wasn’t worth it for me and cost way more.

I looked at hipshot but I hate their plate mounting system. Don’t want it eating up my headstock.

I ended up returning the sg360 mainly because it was too expensive. I have to buy 2 to make a set. And I’m looking to replace 3 guitars with locking sets. It would cost me $500+. Not very cost effective. I’ll keep looking and check out your links.

 

[Stephen White/Guitar Tech]

I really appreciate the post. I had a hard time finding black locking tuners. Let alone ones that had a 90 degree screw hole, I believe is the angle I might be wrong about that though. No one seems to make black locking tuners.

Sperzels are atrocious for the same 1:14 ratio they offer so it wasn’t worth it for me and cost way more.

I looked at hipshot but I hate their plate mounting system. Don’t want it eating up my headstock.

I ended up returning the sg360 mainly because it was too expensive. I have to buy 2 to make a set. And I’m looking to replace 3 guitars with locking sets. It would cost me $500+. Not very cost effective. I’ll keep looking and check out your links.

Very good - I hope you find what you're looking for.
Two thoughts:
(1) Generally, if you install tuners and correctly tighten them with a 'proper' 10mm socket, you can safely use them without drilling for the little 'indexing' screw. The torque on the main mounting nut is plenty to keep the tuner from rotating under string-tension. This means that you don't need to get replacement tuners that match your original indexing holes. (I have quite a fewd customers who have been doing this for many years, with no problems.)

(2) I've installed several sets of Hipshot tuners, using their mounting-plate system, and I never found any damage to the any of the headstocks... Am I missing something? The back-side of the mounting plate (facing the headstock) is completely smooth - it's the front side (facing the tuners) that has the mounting-flanges. I know the guys that run Hipshot; they're not idiots - they wouldn't do something like that...

Anyway - good luck. If I can help, get in touch - you've got my contact info...

Stephen White

 

[M.U.Y.A.]

Very good - I hope you find what you're looking for.
Two thoughts:
(1) Generally, if you install tuners and correctly tighten them with a 'proper' 10mm socket, you can safely use them without drilling for the little 'indexing' screw. The torque on the main mounting nut is plenty to keep the tuner from rotating under string-tension. This means that you don't need to get replacement tuners that match your original indexing holes. (I have quite a fewd customers who have been doing this for many years, with no problems.)
(2) I've installed several sets of Hipshot tuners, using their mounting-plate system, and I never found any damage to the any of the headstocks... Am I missing something? The back-side of the mounting plate (facing the headstock) is completely smooth - it's the front side (facing the tuners) that has the mounting-flanges. I know the guys that run Hipshot; they're not idiots - they wouldn't do something like that...
Anyway - good luck. If I can help, get in touch - you've got my contact info...
Stephen White

I appreciate it. I will actually try out hipshot if that’s the case. I only assumed because they were aluminum plates but I guess they won’t be moving anyways to cause them to scratch.

 

[M.U.Y.A.]

So, I ended going with grip shot grip lock open gear tuners non staggered and I’m more than satisfied with them. They look and feel amazing. They work extremely well. No issues at all.