Tube amps are dying luxury.... Do you agree?

[TedEH]

Understandable, but there's a time and place where someone might want that loose low end. There are some songs we do that end on a giant muted CHUG, and it's supposed to give that overwhelming loose saggy low end thing. Without it, you get a sad chunk and the effect is lost - the weight of the ending is just gone.

In a general conversation about gear, where any number of people and playing situations could apply, "well I don't have a need for that" doesn't negate that someone else does have a use for it. That's the worst part of a thread like this - there isn't a universally better solution. Some people get along with the digital workflow better. Some people get the results they want more easily from a tube amp. There's nothing wrong with that.

 

[Shask]

It's not really as straightforward as that though, is it? So far, my experience with an FM3 has been that getting low end to behave the way I want (to be more "real"?) is one of the biggest challenges of playing through a modeller. I've put some time into trying to match another guitar through the same cab in the same room, and while the "character" is generally the same, the thing that always trips up the modeller is that the low end just never quite responds the same way. Sometimes that's fine. I'm a big fan of the Mesa Mark sound, and models can do that just fine. But when I try to match a Recto - the low end OOMPH under a mute just isn't there. I have to dial things really dramatically in the model to get close to it. I'm not enough of an amp tech or electrical engineer to describe what exactly is happening there, but there's some kind of amp / cab / palm mute interaction thingie that is incredibly fun to do with a real Recto but that a model just can't do.

Maybe that's a problem with the very specific components I've got - since I'm using a setup where, as loud as it is, I definitely still have less headroom than a traditional amp (lol @ 200w not being enough headroom, but it's true) - so you're forced to dial conservatively with low end so that you're not eating up all the available power. Of course if you never play in a room with other musicians, it's a non-issue, but it's stuff like this that makes me say digital doesn't have it all figured out yet. That's not to say it can't sound really good (because it does), but there are practical concerns that exist in this mode that you don't have to worry about when you just plonk down a loud glass+transformer-filled beast onto a cab and run with it.

That low end sag was always one of my biggest criticisms about the Axe II, but I do think the FM3 has improved in this area a lot. Probably not just like a big tube amp, but much better. That is a big deal to me also. That fat low end, like you hear on a Machine Head, or Nevermore album or something.

I have had good luck using the 5153 Blue 50W model. Pick the recto large impedance curve. Play with the negative feedback and sag controls. Add some bass on the output EQ also. Using a bit of the Feedback output compressor can help also. I have been able to get it close enough I dont curse it every time I play it, lol.

 

[Deadpool_25]

No.

 

[TedEH]

Play with the negative feedback and sag controls.

Or plunk the old tube amp down and don't worry about it. And that's my whole point. When I want what the Axe does, I grab the FM3. When I want what a real amp does, I grab a real amp. It's easy. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

[Thaeon]

Understandable, but there's a time and place where someone might want that loose low end. There are some songs we do that end on a giant muted CHUG, and it's supposed to give that overwhelming loose saggy low end thing. Without it, you get a sad chunk and the effect is lost - the weight of the ending is just gone.

In a general conversation about gear, where any number of people and playing situations could apply, "well I don't have a need for that" doesn't negate that someone else does have a use for it. That's the worst part of a thread like this - there isn't a universally better solution. Some people get along with the digital workflow better. Some people get the results they want more easily from a tube amp. There's nothing wrong with that.

I don’t disagree at all. But from my perspective in a band situation, that’s superfluous extra noise that has to be taken out anyway. Some people like that. I don’t. And both of the albums you mentioned are not albums I’d reference for good tone either. Both of those bands I’ve always been pretty meh about. I like guitar to sound almost mechanical. But that’s likely due to listening to all the industrial and industrial metal bands I have over the years. I do like a lot of stuff like Cult of Luna too. But not really for the guitar tone. More for the wall of sound. And I honestly have criticisms about their sound. Even as one of my favorite metal bands. Vertikal II they started to sound better. And the last three releases have sounded pretty good. Guitars included.

All that said, it is art, and people can make it how they want. Sure whatever they use is relevant to them. But that doesn’t mean their process is relevant to all guitarists as a whole. The trend seems to be towards modeling for live productions. But that doesn’t mean that’s the only acceptable way. Just that one way may be taking a back seat. I don’t see one or the other being a bad thing. Just a thing that is.

 

[gnoll]

I feel like the loose low end is the whole point of a recto. If you don't want that, why play a recto?

I've even seen people mod rectos to be tight and it's like yo why are you ruining that wonderful amp? Just get another amp, jeez.

I'm absolutely sick to my balls of this lame ass tight guitar tone that's everywhere. It sounds terrible and I want it to go away.

 

[Thaeon]

I feel like the loose low end is the whole point of a recto. If you don't want that, why play a recto?

I've even seen people mod rectos to be tight and it's like yo why are you ruining that wonderful amp? Just get another amp, jeez.

I'm absolutely sick to my balls of this lame ass tight guitar tone that's everywhere. It sounds terrible and I want it to go away.

Eh…. For some things yes. For others no. I like having the option to have both by stepping on a single switch.

 

[GunpointMetal]

I use some pretty meh Mackie powered speakers as stage/rehearsal monitors and don’t have a problem getting that low end bloom that rattles the whole drum kit when I want it. And thats with cab modeling and everything on. Put it through a PA with subs and you could definitely loosen people’s stool if that’s your goal.

 

[TedEH]

And both of the albums you mentioned are not albums I’d reference for good tone either.

Wait - what albums? Am I going crazy, or can I just not find the post where I referred to a specific album?

 

[ExMachina]

It's not really as straightforward as that though, is it? So far, my experience with an FM3 has been that getting low end to behave the way I want (to be more "real"?) is one of the biggest challenges of playing through a modeller. I've put some time into trying to match another guitar through the same cab in the same room, and while the "character" is generally the same, the thing that always trips up the modeller is that the low end just never quite responds the same way. Sometimes that's fine. I'm a big fan of the Mesa Mark sound, and models can do that just fine. But when I try to match a Recto - the low end OOMPH under a mute just isn't there. I have to dial things really dramatically in the model to get close to it. I'm not enough of an amp tech or electrical engineer to describe what exactly is happening there, but there's some kind of amp / cab / palm mute interaction thingie that is incredibly fun to do with a real Recto but that a model just can't do.

Maybe that's a problem with the very specific components I've got - since I'm using a setup where, as loud as it is, I definitely still have less headroom than a traditional amp (lol @ 200w not being enough headroom, but it's true) - so you're forced to dial conservatively with low end so that you're not eating up all the available power. Of course if you never play in a room with other musicians, it's a non-issue, but it's stuff like this that makes me say digital doesn't have it all figured out yet. That's not to say it can't sound really good (because it does), but there are practical concerns that exist in this mode that you don't have to worry about when you just plonk down a loud glass+transformer-filled beast onto a cab and run with it.

Mess with the speaker impedance curve.

 

[crushingpetal]

Mess with the speaker impedance curve.

This. The recto ones give some big low end. Also, mess with the thump setting. I actually dial it back because it's too big.

 

[Thaeon]

Wait - what albums? Am I going crazy, or can I just not find the post where I referred to a specific album?

Sorry, bands. It’s been a long day, parenting and working at the same time is a lot. 😂

 

[MaxOfMetal]

I don't understand why folks spend a bunch of money on a future space computer that can sound like anything ever and just don't play with all the parameters. That's like the point. It's not like you have to really do much, you just scroll up and down a little, adjust a knob, etc. and you really only have to do it once since you can save the settings.

I mean, do whatever makes you happy, but it seems like sort of missing the point of having such a powerful modeler.

 

[Thaeon]

I don't understand why folks spend a bunch of money on a future space computer that can sound like anything ever and just don't play with all the parameters. That's like the point. It's not like you have to really do much, you just scroll up and down a little, adjust a knob, etc. and you really only have to do it once since you can save the settings.

I mean, do whatever makes you happy, but it seems like sort of missing the point of having such a powerful modeler.

When I had an AxeFX I was always deep in the menus. That’s part of the fun.

 

[Lemonbaby]

I don't understand why folks spend a bunch of money on a future space computer that can sound like anything ever and just don't play with all the parameters. That's like the point. It's not like you have to really do much, you just scroll up and down a little, adjust a knob, etc. and you really only have to do it once since you can save the settings.

I mean, do whatever makes you happy, but it seems like sort of missing the point of having such a powerful modeler.

Idsagdly! Modelers aren't made for playing your guitar through them, they're built for spending years and years fiddling in the menus.

 

[MaxOfMetal]

Idsagdly! Modelers aren't made for playing your guitar through them, they're built for spending years and years fiddling in the menus.

I mean, it's not like folks don't spend an inordinate amount of time fiddling with just about anything gear related to chase the dragon. Physical or in the box.

 

[budda]

Unlike @TedEH i do find the fractal recto feels true to when i owned a roadster, and i dont use the recto models for that very reason

 

[budda]

Or plunk the old tube amp down and don't worry about it. And that's my whole point. When I want what the Axe does, I grab the FM3. When I want what a real amp does, I grab a real amp. It's easy. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Worth noting the question for the thread is “tube amps dying luxury” - if you didnt own the mesas now, would you buy them today?

 

[TedEH]

Mess with the speaker impedance curve.

I have done this, and continue to do this. It's not a magic fix, and it doesn't help that you don't have to do that if you just use a real amp to begin with. Also that the curve stops "working" as soon as you use different cabs (which I do regularly),

if you didnt own the mesas now, would you buy them today?

Absolutely. I wouldn't want to be without a single good "real" amp. If my Mark IV dies, I'll be trying to replace it with another one, or something close to it.

I mean, I've already admitted that it's all luxury stuff, but it ain't dying. Most people I jam with still use real amps, if that means anything.

 

[budda]

I have done this, and continue to do this. It's not a magic fix, and it doesn't help that you don't have to do that if you just use a real amp to begin with. Also that the curve stops "working" as soon as you use different cabs (which I do regularly),


Absolutely. I wouldn't want to be without a single good "real" amp. If my Mark IV dies, I'll be trying to replace it with another one, or something close to it.

I mean, I've already admitted that it's all luxury stuff, but it ain't dying. Most people I jam with still use real amps, if that means anything.

but the way the question is framed is are people buying more tube amps vs other options. I feel like half the people here have had their tube amps for at least a few years and arent thinking about if they didnt have one and had to pay today prices.