True Temperament Collaborating With Cor-Tek

Discussion in 'Standard Guitars' started by HeHasTheJazzHands, Jan 10, 2020.

  1. Russian Robot

    Russian Robot Arbiter of Cheeses

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    Honestly, probably so, if the samples are anything like what was captured in Levi Clay's video. Doesn't the paper data even suggest that there technically are 'more improvements' than 'worse-sounding chords' over ET?
     
  2. bostjan

    bostjan MicroMetal Contributor

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    Without adding more notes, you basically have a minimum amount of overall sourness at equal temperament. TT takes a tiny bit of sourness out of the most common keys on guitar (E, A, G, C...) and sacrifices less common keys (Gb, Ab, Db, B...). It's a clever idea, but the idea's also been around since JS Bach was writing baroque music. Equal temperament (ET) has only been the standard for around 150 years or less, although fretted instruments had some characteristics of equal temperament out of necessity.
    The question I'm asking, though, is if older temperaments had deviations from ET of 6 to 15 cents, and TT has deviations of 2 to 4 cents, and those older temperaments were only subtly different from ET (enough that non-musicians didn't even notice), is it even worth all of the trouble to get TT?
    If you have a discerning ear, I bet you can tell quickly when two simultaneous notes are 4 cents apart, but if the notes are played seperately, you'd need super powers to tell. If one was played on a saxophone and tge other on a guitar, then you really couldn't tell.

    I'm all for trying it out, and I love this becoming more mainstream, on the surface. I also know deep in my heart that TT is thriving off of misinformation and a lot of "hand-waving" explanations, so once the novelty wears off, people will likely stop giving a shit about it.

    Were you around in the 90's, when shelved nuts and compensated tunings were the black magic du jour? Then Washburn offered Buzz Feiten systems on their guitars and within a year, people, by and large, lost interest. Those offsets were around 2 to 5 cents. The general consensus on guitar forums about BFTS now is overwhelmingly meh, although a handful of people love it. Personally, I thought it was nifty.

    There are a lot of comments on Levi's video from people that couldn't tell.
     
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  3. c7spheres

    c7spheres GuitArtist

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    ^
    I had the BFTS on one of my guitars once. It was a big difference to me. Everything definitely sounded more perfect and "better" but I could not get use to it. It was to weird. I tried going back and forth between it and standard for periods over a few years but I just couldn't get use to it. I could see where some people are looking for exactly this procedure though.
    - It did sound better but it's like the energy was sucked out of it. It was this even energy everywhere I played and didn't punch the way I liked. Hard to explain. Oh, and it does sound a bit strange with a normal intonated bass unlike I read a lot. It's not terrible, but it's not preferred. Like there's a phantom chorus effect between you on certain things. I ended up leaving it as a standard setup. When I set it up normal the guitar just came to life. Mojo restored! I put it back to BFTS when I sold the guitar for the new owner though as he wanted to try it out.
     
  4. Mathemagician

    Mathemagician SS.org Regular

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    What was BFTS? I saw it on guitars growing up but never owned one/looked into it. Just assumed it was a manufacturer thing and shrugged it off.
     
  5. c7spheres

    c7spheres GuitArtist

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    Buzz Feiten Tuning System. It's a way they offset the bridge and nut and use special tuning calibration and tuner to try to acheive better sounding guitar all over the fretboard. It works pretty well actually.
     
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  6. OmegaSlayer

    OmegaSlayer SS.org Regular

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    I think it depends on what he plays and the context (live, recording, presence of other instruments) but I think people would spot the difference, and I say it considering that I'm surely not a phenom with pitch
     
  7. Russian Robot

    Russian Robot Arbiter of Cheeses

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    Yep, I agree with this. I doubt I would ever notice the difference between temperaments if, instead of chords, single notes were played.
     
  8. ixlramp

    ixlramp SS.org Regular

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    Has he made side-by-side comparison video? I have not seen one, otherwise this is covered by the below, which is so true:
    Most the TT videos i have seen so far have been a very talented guitarist with excellent technique and a very well set up guitar, showing off, then some people think 'it sounds so good, i am convinced, TT is amazing'.
    Side-by-side recordings of identical chords are needed for a proper judgement.

    The Levi Clay video uses a guitar with an Evertune bridge. This makes the chords sound very stable, which interferes with judgement of chord harmony.
    With these videos it is essential to check what exact chords and keys they play to make sure they are in the 'improved keys', if someone is impressed by the sound of a worsened key or chord, that invalidates their judgement of TT.
    The Eklundh so-called 'TT lesson' video is like that, he plays chords on all root notes, claiming it all sounds good. I criticise his video in detail in one of my other posts, he does not understand TT.
    Levi Clay half gets it but still has major misunderstandings.

    The improvement in chord harmony is subtle but not insignificant. The mostly 3-6 cent improvement in the 14 cent error of the major third will make a small but noticeable improvement in harmony, especially with distortion which 'magnifies' dissonance.
    No, they exactly balance out, this is inherent. Every improvement in harmony in one key creates an equal worsening of harmony in another key. So 12TET spreads the errors equally between all keys by making all semitones equal in size instead of varying sizes, it is neutral and symmetrical.

    This is the primary dilemma of the history of tuning: harmony or choice of usable keys? The history of tuning systems is varying compromises between those 2, increasingly moving away from harmony (Just Intonation) and towards choice of usable keys (Equal Temperaments).

    The progression was Just Intonation (perfect harmony, only 1 usable key) -> Meantone (slightly compromised harmony, several usable keys) -> Well Temperament (significantly compromised harmony, all keys usable but some sound better than others) -> 12 Tone Equal Temperament (significantly compromised harmony, all keys usable and identical in quality).
     
    Last edited: Jan 16, 2020
  9. ixlramp

    ixlramp SS.org Regular

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    Ahh ... i was expecting Cort, but this is Strandberg:
    https://www.truetemperament.com/news/strandberg-winter-namm-2020/
    https://strandbergguitars.com/boden-true-temperament/
    The purple 8 string looks nice. Good to see tasteful black-based 1 colour bursts on these.
    Unfortunately Strandberg are repeating the 'perfect intonation', 'perfect tuning' and 'everywhere on the fretboard' nonsense. But, understandably, it would be awkward and confusing to diverge from TT's marketing in their collaborations.
     
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  10. Hollowway

    Hollowway Extended Ranger

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    @ixlramp Do you know if anyone has done a JI guitar for a particular key? Would it even be possible, in terms of fret shapes?
     
  11. MaxOfMetal

    MaxOfMetal Likes trem wankery. Super Moderator

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    Cort is the manufacturer of the Strandberg.
     
  12. Winspear

    Winspear Tom Winspear

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    All JI guitars are for a set key :)
    They usually use partial frets;
    [​IMG]
    But it can certainly be done with cast or bent fretwire in the same manner as TT.

    For example this old TT design (not a JI guitar, just an example of what can be done with fretwire) which is more true and less universal than their commercial offering
    [​IMG]

    Or this crazy thing..JI subharmonic series guitar where the usual partial frets have been connected in a dot-to-dot fashion.
    [​IMG]


    But yes, JI begins with deriving all intervals from the home key root. As the spacing is unequal, all keys come out differently. All keys can be considered JI though, as all intervals that exist on the guitar are derived from harmonic ratios, but the home key, and ones harmonically closest to it such as the 5th, will be most consonant.
    Then as previously explained, a temperament makes the gaps more even in the progression outlined by ixlramp (where True Temperament fits into the Well Temperament category but more subtle) until we reach completely equal temperament.
     
    Last edited: Jan 18, 2020
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  13. ixlramp

    ixlramp SS.org Regular

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  14. ixlramp

    ixlramp SS.org Regular

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    That one was actually their 'Meantone Blues' fretting, which is a 'Meantone Temperament' tonal system: Fairly close to JI but only usable in some keys.
    In this video of Anders Thidell, the original inventor and original owner of TT, you can clearly hear the harmony of the distorted chords. The video description is informative too, because it is old TT literature =)
     
    Last edited: Jan 18, 2020
  15. Winspear

    Winspear Tom Winspear

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    Indeed! Great video. I updated my post to be clear that wasn't a JI guitar - was just giving an example of bent fretwire haha
     
  16. Hollowway

    Hollowway Extended Ranger

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    @Winspear @ixlramp now THAT is something I'd want to try. A purely consonant JI guitar. I get that it's in just one key, but it would be super cool to compose on, as you wouldn't have to worry about the different keys.

    But I have a question. If you have a JI guitar in the key of E, and you detune the guitar to D standard, the fret positioning hasn't changed. Can you plan with consonance in that, or does the changed string tensions mean the intervals are now going to be off enough to be significant?
     
  17. Winspear

    Winspear Tom Winspear

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    Retuing the guitar is fine, as long as you keep the same intervals between the strings :) The fret positions are in cents from the root - it doesn't care what actual note/frequency that root is.
    You would face intonation/setup/tension considerations no different to a normal guitar.
     
  18. Hollowway

    Hollowway Extended Ranger

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    This is cool. I feel like you could get a few of these, and with tuning up and down each one cover pretty much every key.
     
  19. bostjan

    bostjan MicroMetal Contributor

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    I'd love to try that otonal guitar. By far the coolest JI guitar around. No idea how much something like that would cost, though...
     
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  20. bostjan

    bostjan MicroMetal Contributor

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    Depends on how many keys you want to use. Since we are well ouside the realm of standardization, you could, in theory, have infinite keys. Maybe if someone with too much time and money on their hands did a doubleneck of this with open-source robot tuners, you could handle any key change, as long as you knew in advance enough to have the robotuners on your spare neck get it into the next key.

    I've got my own JI template, based off of extending Zarlino's work on tuning. It takes an approach of quantizing the number of available steps used. The idea was to use it for adaptive piano/keys, but, if I ever win megamillions, I'd give it a shot on guitar.
     
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