True Temperament Collaborating With Cor-Tek

Discussion in 'Standard Guitars' started by HeHasTheJazzHands, Jan 10, 2020.

  1. c7spheres

    c7spheres GuitArtist

    Messages:
    2,485
    Likes Received:
    2,131
    Joined:
    Jan 13, 2017
    Location:
    Arizona
    When I look under the FAQ's it says that all keys work perfectly together which contradicts the thing I read yesterday. NOw I'm interested again in it. They also say that the TF1 adjusts every string to fret contact point so that the freq plays exactly at each fret, and they claim perfect intonation too. Apparently this TF1 is their end all be all height of their accomplishments with this so they stopped using the other methods. I get he misleading/ not transparent parts of how they choose words but basically it seems if you read everything they talk about under the preface of realting to their well tempered TF1 technology then it is "technically" all true. The last claim on their FAQ's says that it works just fine with "ordinary" instruments and causes no dissonance whatsoever. I don't buy that because if it didn't then what dissonance is it eliminating in relation to "ordinary"? It can't be different and the same. I think they mean that it sounds good together still, but that seems debateable.
     
    XPT707FX and Hollowway like this.
  2. ramses

    ramses Guitar/pizza regular

    Messages:
    817
    Likes Received:
    336
    Joined:
    Jul 18, 2011
    Location:
    Bay Area, CA
    You are actually doing a great job at selling me the TF1 system.
     
  3. bostjan

    bostjan MicroMetal Contributor

    Messages:
    15,530
    Likes Received:
    3,789
    Joined:
    Dec 7, 2005
    Location:
    St. Johnsbury, VT USA
    There is no perfect tuning that has a countable number of notes and is in tune for every key. It's always a balance of compromises. TF1 sounds better in some keys and worse in others. My problem with it is that the corrections are too toned down to make it worth all of the trouble. I'd prefer a Werkmeister or Young formula that makes bolder corrections.

    But if you want nicer thirds, check out 19edo. The fifths (and fourths) are barely noticeably off from just and the thirds and sixths are way better than standard. Seconds and sevenths are a little more out, but still totally useable. If you want to play consonant intervals, it's the perfect tuning to expand your horizons.
     
  4. ramses

    ramses Guitar/pizza regular

    Messages:
    817
    Likes Received:
    336
    Joined:
    Jul 18, 2011
    Location:
    Bay Area, CA
    Why do you think they went that route? To reduce cost? Is it a good compromise for versatility of the resulting instrument?
     
  5. Lemonbaby

    Lemonbaby SS.org Regular

    Messages:
    1,105
    Likes Received:
    758
    Joined:
    Jun 3, 2015
    Location:
    Germany
    The FAQ is actually close to useless and so superficial that you have no idea of WHAT exactly will improve WHY with TT frets and not to forget: what are the disadvantages? :scratch:
     
  6. ixlramp

    ixlramp SS.org Regular

    Messages:
    2,646
    Likes Received:
    1,360
    Joined:
    Mar 5, 2007
    Location:
    UK
    Now that we know that TT only offer the 'Thidell Formula 1' fretting system, we can state this amusing and ironic fact:

    A guitar with TT fretting will have worse intonation, and be more out of tune, than most other guitars.

    The word 'intonation' and the phrase 'in tune' both mean how closely each pitch along a string is to the pitches of the intended tonal system, these words have nothing to do with the harmony of an interval or a chord.

    The modern and very dominant tonal system used is '12 Tone Equal Temperment' (12TET). Almost all guitars, bass guitars, keyboards and other instruments use this tonal system. Any ensemble of instruments containing a guitar almost certainly uses 12TET.
    So the word 'intonation' and the phrase 'in tune', when used referring to the guitar market, certainly means 'intonated to' and 'in tune with' 12TET.

    So TT are deceiving with their marketing.

    On the 'How to tune' page of their website https://www.truetemperament.com/how-to-tune/ the deviation of TF1 from 12TET is made clear. This is a page with essential tuning information so they were not able to conceal the truth here:

    "All tuning offsets starts from zero cent in the "equal" temperament.
    Chromatic tuning offsets:
    E= -2, F= 0, F#= -4, G= +4, G#= -4, A= 0, Bb= -4, B= -1, C= +2, C#=-4, D= +2, Eb= -4."

    And in the current FAQ:

    "What happens when True Temperament guitars are used with other guitars, bass, piano etc?

    It works just fine together with “ordinary” instruments. The offsets from Equal Temper are not so severe that they create any dissonance whatsoever."

    ///////////

    From the current TT FAQ page:

    -----------

    "Is there any key that works better than others using TT?

    No, all keys work together perfectly fine all over the fretboard."

    The 'no' here is clear deception. Chord and interval harmony is slightly improved in only half of the 12 keys, at the expense of slightly worse harmony in the other half. Which keys are improved depends on whether they are major or minor.

    Their old site states this on the TF1 page:
    https://web.archive.org/web/20111109073758/http://www.truetemperament.com/site/index.php?go=1&sgo=1

    And with similar text in the 'Technical Details' pdf:
    https://web.archive.org/web/2015081....com/site/gfx/documents/Technical_Details.pdf

    "Formula 1 does not take F as most favoured major key, but keeps the third to A equal tempered. However the F - C fifth interval is Just. The tonal balance here favours the major keys of E, F#, G, A, B, C, D. Minor keys which are more consonant than in equal temperament are E, F#, G#, A, B, Eb."

    -----------

    "Do I need to use a particular string gauge?

    No, not really. This is all about the intonation range at the bridge, for instance a Tune-o-matic bridge. A heavy string gauge combined with down tuning can end up out of intonation range."

    Not true, the gauges you can use are limited and a wound 3rd is unusable.
    Again contradicted by their old website, in the FAQ:

    "Do I need to use a particular string gauge?

    Our concert pitch electric guitar necks are optimised for standard plain 3rd roundwound string sets from 0.009" - 0.046" & 0.010" - 0.046", to 0,011" - 0,050". We have found that normal intonation at the octave is enough to handle this range of gauges.

    Using a wound 3rd is not an option if you have a True Temperament neck designed for a plain 3rd string."

    Note that TF1, the only system they offer now, is designed for a plain 3rd.
     
    OmegaSlayer, Hollowway and c7spheres like this.
  7. ixlramp

    ixlramp SS.org Regular

    Messages:
    2,646
    Likes Received:
    1,360
    Joined:
    Mar 5, 2007
    Location:
    UK
    See my post above.
    "all keys work together perfectly fine all over the fretboard." is really vague language, i think they mean: No keys have extremely or very unpleasantly worse harmony, which is true.
    Because the offsets from 12TET are up to +/-4 cents, the maximum alteration of any interval size is 8 cents. So in some keys an interval can have its harmony improved by 8 cents, in some keys it will be worse by 8 cents. So it is a case of 'slightly improved harmony' and 'slightly worse harmony'.
    See my post above, this is deception.
    No, the TF1 system cannot replace the other systems they used to offer, because they are all significantly different temperaments, and one was 12TET.
    It is probably because the TF1 system was the one getting all the media attention, and the one chosen by Strandberg and most of the endorsing artists, so is the one with the most commercial potential. It is really bad that they stopped the 12TET system which is what you would think guitarists would actually want (if they understood all this).
    TF1 is also the most subtle Well Temperment they offered, so is the least dissonant when played with other instruments.
    It is not =)
    The offsets from 12TET are limited to a maximum of +/- 4 cents so that there is not any significant dissonance when played with other instruments (that use 12TET).
     
  8. ixlramp

    ixlramp SS.org Regular

    Messages:
    2,646
    Likes Received:
    1,360
    Joined:
    Mar 5, 2007
    Location:
    UK
    Every time TT state 'perfect intonation' and 'in tune', which is their basic marketing message, they are deceiving. Because everyone understandably assumes they mean 'intonated to' and 'in tune with' 12TET, but they do not, they actually mean 'intonated to' and 'in tune with' a 'Well Temperament' tonal system, which is slightly out of tune with 12TET.
    This is how they are 'deceiving by omission' while retaining an excuse: "But we meant Well Temperament!"

    The old site clarifies this in the FAQ:
    https://web.archive.org/web/2014041...etemperament.com/site/index.php?go=4&sgo=0#A1

    "What does “True Temperament” mean?

    What we mean by True Temperament is that our fretting system will give you super-accurate intonation over the whole fingerboard in the particular temperament it is constructed for, whether this be standard 12-tone Equal Temperament or any of the other temperaments we offer."

    Now that they only offer the TF1 system, the temperament the fingerboard is constructed for is a 'Well Temperament', not 12TET.

    I feel we are about to see a large scale deception for commercial gain.

    To be clear, i think it is good to offer Well Tempered guitars and i have nothing against such guitars. In a way i appreciate what TT are doing. I just object to the intentional deception and am concerned about the ignorant hype in the music media.
    The old TT site was quite good, and i always got a good vibe from the original inventor Anders Thidell, and have not yet seen him deceive in video interviews. His original partner Paul Guy of Guy Guitars has kept his site similar state to the old TT site.

    As TT became mainstream, the company grew, and it seems that 'the people with illuminated currency symbols in their eyes' moved in and have turned it into a deceiving money-prioritising project, taking advantage of the misunderstandings and ignorant hype in the guitar community. This of course is common but sad to see.
     
  9. Winspear

    Winspear Tom Winspear

    Messages:
    11,704
    Likes Received:
    2,414
    Joined:
    Oct 23, 2009
    Location:
    Yorkshire, U.K
    That's exactly the thing. It's so subtle (has to be, else the half of keys that are worsened would be unusable - plus compatability with other instruments) that it still works with 12TET.
    Digging up the old chart I made analysing chords built from their chromatic offsets listed on their site (includes my initial comments listening to the chords on a synth). Green is better than a normal guitar, orange is worse - though I didn't colour the 5ths for some reason. (You're aiming for roughly -15c on major thirds and +15c on minor thirds, ie 400>386 and 300>315, along with 700>702 for 5ths).
    [​IMG]

    As you can see, most adjustments are no more than five cents. This is often quoted as the practical threshold of perception. You'll have that kind of deviation with string movement, fretting pressure, slight mistunings between band members etc etc. So it's incredibly subtle. Even as someone picky about tuning and intonation, I can't say I'd have noticed most of these if I wasn't playing them on a perfect synthesizer and forcing myself to listen and comment on them. The improvements are so subtle that I'm not sure the occasionally not quite so subtle worse chords are worth the trade off, for me.

    Much like has been said - I appreciate what they are doing and this subtle improvement to popular keys really is the best you can do without making the unpopular keys sound poor. But the lack of transparency, misunderstood hype (there's already enough misunderstanding around tuning without this), price for such subtle change, and durability (that has at least been addressed now) leaves me a bit eh...So I'll take the opportunity to put this information in threads even though we probably sound like a bunch of "actually..." nerds ranting about something which is really a pretty cool invention :lol:

    -------

    For anyone curious, play an E major 022100 with the G string tuned to 0 cents (normal guitar) and then -5 cents. -5 should sound very slightly better if noticeable. This is the most extreme improvement TT provides, to ~4 keys on the guitar at a similar cost to 4 others.
    Now tune that string -15 cents - that's what a Justly tuned major chord actually sounds like. You may want to play just 0xx1xx or xx21xx to hear it more clearly. This is likely the pitch your ear will lock to if tuning by ear. TT will not give you this.

    Similarly, do the same with E minor 022000 but in the opposite direction. +15 is the Just tuning and sounds great. TT barely gives you +3 in most keys.
     
    Last edited: Jan 12, 2020
  10. c7spheres

    c7spheres GuitArtist

    Messages:
    2,485
    Likes Received:
    2,131
    Joined:
    Jan 13, 2017
    Location:
    Arizona
    - Basically what I was saying is when you relate everything they say under the preface of it relating to their well tempered TF1 technology what they are saying is techincally true, but I agree with what you're saying about it being decieving. Im not sure ifit matters much and I think it's probably for a reason.
    - To play devils advocate I'd say it's easier for them to market in a way so people understand it will sound better and not messed up with "normal" instruments, because I don't think most people know about all the techinical jargon and I doubt most people care honestly. People care that it sounds better and don't mess with anything, so I guess the marketing is just tilting it in favor of these people. For people who are interested and do care, the information is there to be found and they have made it available and don't seem to deny it.
    -
     
  11. Winspear

    Winspear Tom Winspear

    Messages:
    11,704
    Likes Received:
    2,414
    Joined:
    Oct 23, 2009
    Location:
    Yorkshire, U.K
    ^ You are of course absolutely right. I just don't think it's right that from what I can see almost all customers or potential customers are under the impression that TT magically cures all intonation problems and makes the guitar sound perfect all over the board. It would have been possible to keep the marketing similarly simple whilst just saying "it improves popular keys slightly" - but of course that would not seem nearly as worth the investment. I understand their decisions. I just think its good for attention to be drawn to this info where possible so that some may see "oh, hang on , this isn't what I thought it was at all"

    It's really not helped by the fact that as far as I'm aware there are still no actual product demos. There have been some slightly more useful videos recently but no real direct and fair comparisons. Most of what people see amounts to little more than "hey check this out it sounds great", with some playing that hypothetically could have been recorded on a regular and well intonated guitar without the vast majority of viewers thinking it sounds any less great
     
    Last edited: Jan 12, 2020
    Hollowway and c7spheres like this.
  12. c7spheres

    c7spheres GuitArtist

    Messages:
    2,485
    Likes Received:
    2,131
    Joined:
    Jan 13, 2017
    Location:
    Arizona
    Yep, Seems to be more trouble than it's worth, plus the actual numbers I'm seeing and also what they claim don't really impress me. I have my own offset method that is getting me better results than this anyways, but I still use straight frets. My method has to do with the entire setup of the guitars action height vs string gauge vs spring tension (on LoPro). My neck is dead straight and it uses different tensions at the saddles on the fine tuners too so that when "I" play at my normal pressures everything lines up really well and sounds great. I know some people will debate if tension can be transfered around to the nut vs fine tuners vs string tree etc, but in my experience it can and does affect how the string yaw's/ stretches. It's always worked well for me so I figure I should stick with the mantr "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" .
     
    Wildebeest likes this.
  13. c7spheres

    c7spheres GuitArtist

    Messages:
    2,485
    Likes Received:
    2,131
    Joined:
    Jan 13, 2017
    Location:
    Arizona
    Totally. I really don't appreciate company putting me through all this time reserching stuff just to find out it's not all it claims. I've ran into this type of stuff so many times (especially with studio gear and processors) making claims only to find out it's bs. Really pisses me off when you have to buy it to find out and then do the whole return process.
     
    Hollowway likes this.
  14. Hollowway

    Hollowway Extended Ranger

    Messages:
    13,869
    Likes Received:
    6,388
    Joined:
    Dec 28, 2008
    Location:
    California
    Yeah, I will say (again) huge thanks to @Winspear and @ixlramp for taking the time to parse this out. This isn’t the first time you guys have put in effort to help us all out, and it’s very much appreciated.
    For me, the net result of this is that TT (TF1) doesn’t sound nearly as ground breaking as I assumed based on what I read on the site. It’s been years since I looked into this stuff, and what you guys have explained shows that I’m not likely to get nearly the wow factor I was thinking I would. I’m honestly better off investing in other parts of my instrument to get things sounding better.
     
    exo, Wildebeest and c7spheres like this.
  15. narad

    narad Progressive metal and politics

    Messages:
    9,029
    Likes Received:
    10,120
    Joined:
    Feb 15, 2009
    Location:
    Tokyo
    I would kind of like, "Still flawed, but different."
     
    Lorcan Ward, Hollowway and c7spheres like this.
  16. ramses

    ramses Guitar/pizza regular

    Messages:
    817
    Likes Received:
    336
    Joined:
    Jul 18, 2011
    Location:
    Bay Area, CA
    The good news is that soon I'll be able to try it out in a Guitar Center, to decide if it's worth it for me. Sounds like it won't be, but I'll give it a try.
     
    c7spheres likes this.
  17. OmegaSlayer

    OmegaSlayer SS.org Regular

    Messages:
    2,989
    Likes Received:
    211
    Joined:
    Oct 18, 2013
    Location:
    Roma, Italy
    Point A - Do we "all" play "only" power chords because of the beating and would play more complex sound with TTs? In with "all" I mean everyone even outside the forum

    Point B - TT for multiscale when? :congress:
     
  18. bostjan

    bostjan MicroMetal Contributor

    Messages:
    15,530
    Likes Received:
    3,789
    Joined:
    Dec 7, 2005
    Location:
    St. Johnsbury, VT USA
    Power chords are as popular as they are because of consonance. More consonance is almost universally seen as better, all else being equal. The standard guitar power chord is less than 2 cents error from ideal consonance. Moveable power chords in TT would be, on average, 2 cents off, but ranging from less than 1 cent to almost 6 cents off. Honestly, none of that is going to be the least bit noticeable to 99% of listeners, nor even to most players with a keen ear.

    That's kind of my point from earlier. The TT corrections are so minimal that, in theory, they shouldn't even matter. It says right in the TT literature that the difference between standard and TT is undetectable when playing in mixed ensemble (TT vs. 12edo).
     
  19. OmegaSlayer

    OmegaSlayer SS.org Regular

    Messages:
    2,989
    Likes Received:
    211
    Joined:
    Oct 18, 2013
    Location:
    Roma, Italy
    I'm not arguing on your point, except for the fact that it's "on paper"...it's data that can't be argued
    What I mean is that...we're sitting there, writing some music and a chord, a passage sounds wrong when it shouldn't, then you either decide to record it in separate tracks to avoid the beating, or you just trash that solution and find a new one

    The paper/data say that the difference is more or less negligible, hearing Mattias Eklundh tells me it's not negligible
     
  20. bostjan

    bostjan MicroMetal Contributor

    Messages:
    15,530
    Likes Received:
    3,789
    Joined:
    Dec 7, 2005
    Location:
    St. Johnsbury, VT USA
    Hearing him play or hearing him talk?

    Have you heard him play standard guitars? If I played a random clip of him playing, could you tell me if he's using his TT guitar or not?
     

Share This Page

  1. This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register.
    By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our use of cookies.