True Temperament Collaborating With Cor-Tek

Discussion in 'Standard Guitars' started by HeHasTheJazzHands, Jan 10, 2020.

  1. trem licking

    trem licking SS.org Regular

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    im pretty sure when they first came out, they were nickel... but i could be wrong. but how shitty would that be to have your perfectly placed frets get slightly imperfect from wear? haha
     
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  2. Winspear

    Winspear Tom Winspear

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    Whatever they were they were notorious for fast wear, especially given the price. The stainless are significantly more expensive but apparently last exponentially longer
     
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  3. sakeido

    sakeido Contributor

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    back in the day they did offer different sets of True Temperament frets depending on your intending tuning, but it looks like they settled on a common design and only offer that now

    this guy talks about different designs depending on your intended use of the guitar and offers two designs. One for "normal" playing, one for "jazz." He actually has the True Temperament copyright on the bottom and page dates back to 2006 so maybe it's just a very old page from the same company. From what I remember, they ballooned up to something like five designs at one point, but I can't find any backup for that

    edit: oh here we go
    https://web.archive.org/web/2012013...ent.com/site/gfx/documents/Prices_Options.pdf

    they had four designs when this was published. "Normal," one specific for low tunings, "Die Wohltemperirte Gitarre" and 12-Tone Equal Temperament. iirc that last one sounded the most extreme, almost synth-like at times, and also was the craziest looking and probably weirdest to play.

    good post here on the forum about TT https://www.sevenstring.org/threads...tail-using-an-archive-of-the-old-site.337329/
     
    Last edited: Jan 10, 2020
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  4. c7spheres

    c7spheres GuitArtist

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    - That's some good info. I'm getting a bit melodramatic on the explinations of key colours : ) I'm glad they're working out what seems to work best over time and continuing to refine things. It seems they're figuring out what works best overall.
    - I'd love to play a guitar with these someday to see the impact they have, but ultimately I don't think it's a huge deal to me, personally. I've found the way I like things for my tastes and the intonation is so near perfect it's a non issue. It's a great idea for sure but I can't see myself going through the hassels involved with getting these installed. Maybe with a new instrument possibly. I can cerainly see the advantages in some situations.
    - I think the biggest appeal for these is for people that don't play with well balanced placement and pressure and also don't really know how to suss out a guitar's balanced/sweetened tunings and intonation offsets, which is a huge market I'd guess because doing that with a guitar really is a fine art and more than a techincal science.
    - The only thing that would be a concern is when they refine the formula again. I wonder if they would offer upgraded fret replacements with the new offests or anything.
     
  5. Hollowway

    Hollowway Extended Ranger

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    Actually, you have to be in standard tuning. You can tune down or up a little bit (like DGCFAD) but you can’t do, for instance, an open tuning, etc. The keys will all sound the same, but the tunings won’t. That’s why you need to make sure you’re comfortable in standard if you’re considering one.
     
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  6. c7spheres

    c7spheres GuitArtist

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    Ah, Good to know. I guess there's more going on with it than meets the eye. Reading more on it, it appears they also don't recommend wound 3rd strings or 3rd strings thicker than 0.18 unless you have a TT neck designed for use with a wound 3rd, and other stuff too. So it appears it's best to go into this with knowing exactly what you want in advance. I don't think it's for me.
     
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  7. Hollowway

    Hollowway Extended Ranger

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    Yeah, same for me. I almost always play with standard, and string gauges that would work, but it’s exceptionally difficult to hear a difference. And I don’t play jazz, so it’s not like a root and fifth are going to sound much better.
     
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  8. c7spheres

    c7spheres GuitArtist

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    Yeh, I have my own system of offsetting my guitars to get them as near perfect as possible for my playing pressure. I'm pretty happy with it.
    - I use to have a custom with the Buzz Feiten system on it which was near perfect, but it was strange and kinda lifeless. It's like all the potential energy was sucked out of the guitar somehow and everthing was just kinda flat regarding the punch the energy from chords and such had to it, but it was near perfect. I ended up putting it back to normal and went back and forth quite a few times over the years I owned it, seriously giving the Buzz system a chance and wanting to like it better, but it was to strange for me. The sound was there but not the feel. When I'd put it back to "normal" the guitar came back to life. Weird and psychological too I'd imagine.
    - I like how this TT system works though because it seems it would still keep that potential "punch" energy and life of those chords there while still sweetening up the intonation, as it's a different way of doing things, but it's just to much to deal with for me since I already get what I want with my own little way of doing things. I see these things as useful but not necessary or even desireable un certain situations.
    - What the real advantage of this system would be is to allow better intonation while being a sloppier player or being able to get better intonation on those cocplex chords. I can see a bight future for it, maybe even a new standard and as desirable as fanned frets are nowadays.
     
  9. Hollowway

    Hollowway Extended Ranger

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    Yeah, I think the real use for this is playing complex chords with a lot of distortion. It’s something most of us avoid currently because the notes beat, and it ends up sounding like mush. You can get around it when recording building chords one note at a time multitracked, and correcting for the little pitch errors. But, for live this would work well.
    I think I just talked myself back into wanting one. :lol:
     
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  10. ixlramp

    ixlramp SS.org Regular

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    Ha ... Winspear beat me to it.

    That press release is again misleading. Assuming the TT system that will be used for Cor-Tek guitars is 'Thidell formula 1' (a fairly safe assumption, it is the common TT system seen on Strandbergs etc.), these guitars will actually be deliberately slightly out of tune with our standard 12 Tone Equal Temperament (12TET) that most instruments use.
    TT Thidell formula 1 is a historical tonal system called a 'Well Temperment', and is 12TET with each pitch offset by up to 4 cents, to make chords in the more commonly used keys more harmonious (closer to Just Intonation).

    Their claims of 'perfect intonation' and 'tunes correctly' do not mean perfectly intonated to or tuned to 12TET, however they are perpetuating that misunderstanding.
    Years ago their website was full of detail, but then it got extremely dumbed-down and uninformative as they became mainstream.
    Most people misunderstand what TT is, including many of the endorsing guitarists.
    They have made no effort to correct the misunderstandings and are riding the ignorant and extreme hype.

    "Probably the greatest improvement in guitar making in 100 years." but actually not remotely =)

    For an attempt at a clear explanation see my thread https://www.sevenstring.org/threads...-summary-of-true-temperament-fretting.337522/
     
    Last edited: Jan 11, 2020
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  11. ixlramp

    ixlramp SS.org Regular

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    It does not improve intonation for sloppy players.
    TT only makes fairly conventional chords a little more harmonious in half of the 12 keys, at the expense of making chords in the other keys less harmonious. So there is little benefit for unusual harmony and no benefit for unconventional use of keys. More a thing for conventional music in white-note keys. So no idea why Fredrik Thordendal has one =)
    The improvement in chord harmony is only small too, chords are still quite far from being Just Intonation (perfect harmony).
     
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  12. c7spheres

    c7spheres GuitArtist

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    - My thinking was for sloppy players that don't pay much mind to their finger position between the frets that this would put their finger closer to the fret making it a bit better placed resulting in a bit better intonation, but I guess if they adjust to the same amount of slop it would just be as far off anyways.

    - Reading up more on it, that sucks it only helps certain keys more than others. It makes me lose all interest in it other than trying it out if I happen to come across it honestly.
     
  13. Lorcan Ward

    Lorcan Ward 7slinger

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    In a mix it’s not something you would pick up on. When tabbing bands like Slipknot, Children of Bodom, nightwish, August Burns red I’ll come across points their guitar went out of tune while tracking or they simply didn’t bother to even intonate when changing tuning(morrigan by Children Of Bodom is an example, the upper frets are all sharp).

    It’s a really good challenge for your ears and muscle memory to play along to violin tracks where you have to 1/8th and 1/4th bend notes to be in tune.
     
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  14. bostjan

    bostjan MicroMetal Contributor

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    Let the tidal wave of vague misinformation begin!
     
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  15. Hollowway

    Hollowway Extended Ranger

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    I didn’t know that. I thought it was the same for all keys. That’s probably the biggest detraction. Had the keys been the same, at least you could say it was a slight improvement on a regular guitar.
     
  16. narad

    narad Progressive metal and politics

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    Just listen to this A/B and see if you like it. Theory aside, just the sound of it convinced me (though I had my order in for them in like 2014...):

     
  17. ixlramp

    ixlramp SS.org Regular

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    Anyway, this depends on what True Temperament (TT) system Cor-Tek choose. If they have any sense they would choose the TT '12 Tone Equal Temperament' (12TET) system, which offsets frets in a subtle way so that intonation is closer to 12TET, the tonal system that all other instruments use. You would think this is what most guitar players actually want.
    Then they can truthfully promote this as being improved intonation and more in tune.

    However, i expect they will use the TT 'Thidell Formula 1' (TF1) system and do what TT is doing, deceive by omission and be complicit with the ignorant hype for commercial interest.

    We will be able to tell because the 2 TT systems look significantly different:

    tt_12equal_lay.jpg

    The TT 12TET system (above) is far more subtle as it is only making very small corrections to get closer to 12TET, a well set up guitar is already very close.

    tt_formula1_lay.jpg

    The TT TF1 system (above) has larger fret offsets as it is also offsetting each tone of 12TET up or down by up to 4 cents to result in an alternative tonal system called a 'Well Temperament'.
    Looking at the Strandbergs and the guitars of endorsing artists, most seem to be TT TF1.

    The TT TF1 system makes more of an impression on guitarists when they try it because it improves the harmony of chords, and i suspect most guitarists then misunderstand this as meaning the guitar is more closely intonated to 12TET. This misunderstanding is then reinforced by the deception and ignorant hype.

    The actual situation is:
    If chords have improved harmony, the guitar will be deviating from 12TET.
    If the guitar is closely intonated to 12TET, chords cannot have improved harmony.
    This is because 12TET inherently results in intervals and chords with imperfect harmony.

    This is related to the misunderstanding where a guitarist will notice that the harmony of chords is bad, and then incorrectly conclude that the intonation of the guitar is bad. In fact, even if the guitar is very closely intonated to 12TET the chords will still have bad harmony.
    This misunderstanding works in favour of TT, as a guitarist may then experience the improved harmony of chords of the TT TF1 system and conclude that the guitar is more closely intonated to 12TET.

    If Cor-Tek choose the TT 12TET system the guitars will lose the 'wow factor' of chords with improved harmony, and just sound like a well set up guitar, this does not have as much commercial potential.

    A TT system does improve intonation, but TT often fail to inform that it is more closely intonated to 'the intended tonal system' and what that intended tonal system is.
    For the TT TF1 system, the intended tonal system is actually a tonal system known as a 'Well Temperament', which is a deviation from 12TET.
    This means they can truthfully state "perfect intonation all over the fretboard", "tunes correctly over the whole register" (even though these are exaggerated and sloppy statements) but they are actually deceiving by what they are not stating.

    I have just looked at the TT FAQ. They only offer the TT TF1 system now, but i expect Cor-Tek could use the TT 12TET system if they wanted to. However i think it is unlikely.
    The FAQ seems worse now, it is actually deceiving in places, i will cover this in another post.
     
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  18. ixlramp

    ixlramp SS.org Regular

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    I should also mention that a possible attraction for some of the TT TF1 system is the 'key colour' created by this 'Well Temperament' tonal system. Every key (of the same scale) now has a slightly different character. Also, chords on differing root notes have slightly differing characters, some are closer to perfect harmony, some further away.

    Well Temperament was the historical tonal system used for European classical music before 12 Tone Equal Temperament, and was used from the 1600s to the 1800s. J.S.Bach's 'Well Tempered Clavier' refers to it.
    The key colour descriptions here are rather dramatic https://www.wmich.edu/mus-theo/courses/keys.html
     
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  19. bostjan

    bostjan MicroMetal Contributor

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    TT stopped offering their 12edo system a little while ago, though. I have no problem with unequal temperament, but I'd love to see some transparency from TT about their system.

    If a Cort unequal temperament guitar hits the market for cheap, it'd be super tempting for me, but I'd be more interested in something funkier.
     
  20. ixlramp

    ixlramp SS.org Regular

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    Only because he is probably playing in the commonly used keys FCGDAEB =)

    Actually, there is no A/B comparison in this video. The section with the yellow guitar is a demonstration of what he just explained at 1:50: He has retuned the strings (by up to +/-18 cents) such that the E major chord is in Just Intonation (perfect harmony), and then plays a C major chord with those retuned stirngs. The result obviously sounds bad. The yellow guitar is not a guitar tuned and intonated to 12TET.

    He did a reasonable job of the video however ...
    His use of 'in tune' is misleading, that confuses 'in tune with 12TET' with the perfect harmony of Just Intonation.
    He claims the chords are 'in tune', as in 'Just Intonation', when they are not. We calculated the improvements of each interval that TT TF1 results in and the intervals are only altered halfway towards Just Intonation at the most. So chords are 'more in tune'.
    He never mentioned that chords have worse harmony in one half of all possible keys, or that the guitar deviates from 12TET such that most notes are slightly out of tune with all other instruments.

    Most TT videos are either like this or worse, so the misunderstanding continues. I do not blame him though, this is technical stuff. Winspear, bostjan and i are all technically minded people who have studied microtonal and historical tonal systems.
     
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