Tricks for faking a resonance control for your amp?

Shask

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Dude! I looked on the website and swore it said 3 bands 40Hz to 15kHz.
Now I look and am confused cause it says what you say. Wtf! Kinda misleading and an oversight on my part too. @Bearitone, Sorry, I dont think this one is gonna work either. Damn! I thought we found one! The search continues.

Sorry for any confusion and getting any hopes up.
That would be too big a range for 1 knob. It would sound like tuning a radio turning the knob, lol.
 

Gudbrand

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That would be too big a range for 1 knob. It would sound like tuning a radio turning the knob, lol.

Yeah, it would be almost impossible to zero in on a particular frequency.

I wonder if a custom builder that offers a parametric EQ could do this easily. I'd imagine they'd just have to duplicate the low band.
 

Shask

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Yeah, it would be almost impossible to zero in on a particular frequency.

I wonder if a custom builder that offers a parametric EQ could do this easily. I'd imagine they'd just have to duplicate the low band.

If you wanted to really change the frequencies, you could probably figure out what you want using an online Gyrator circuit calculator.
 

c7spheres

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That would be too big a range for 1 knob. It would sound like tuning a radio turning the knob, lol.
That's what I do with my Ashly rack Eq though. It's just a parametric eq with big range. It'd be nice to have small footprint unit with similiar ability.

If you wanted to really change the frequencies, you could probably figure out what you want using an online Gyrator circuit calculator.
This is where I need more education when it comes to circuits. Why isn't there a bunch of options out there for fully parametric Eq's? Is it really difficult to make good one or a conspiracy or what? I tend to learn towards conspiracy. It's more fun that way : )
 

Shask

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That's what I do with my Ashly rack Eq though. It's just a parametric eq with big range. It'd be nice to have small footprint unit with similiar ability.

This is where I need more education when it comes to circuits. Why isn't there a bunch of options out there for fully parametric Eq's? Is it really difficult to make good one or a conspiracy or what? I tend to learn towards conspiracy. It's more fun that way : )
If you look at an EQ schematic, generally all bands are the same circuit, and usually there is just a cap or 2 that is different on each band that sets the frequency.

On the BYOC I posted above, there is a pair of caps above each opamp that are different on each band. Those will be what sets the frequency of each band. Notice the circuit besides those is the same.

I have considered buying a Boss GE-7 and modding it to be 300, 400, 500, 600, 700, 800, 900, etc... as a mids controller EQ. Its just 1 cap per band to change.
 

c7spheres

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If you look at an EQ schematic, generally all bands are the same circuit, and usually there is just a cap or 2 that is different on each band that sets the frequency.

On the BYOC I posted above, there is a pair of caps above each opamp that are different on each band. Those will be what sets the frequency of each band. Notice the circuit besides those is the same.

I have considered buying a Boss GE-7 and modding it to be 300, 400, 500, 600, 700, 800, 900, etc... as a mids controller EQ. Its just 1 cap per band to change.
So in theory would I just change those to match the low band caps If I wanted two low bands?, or would doing that cause a differnent result because of impedence and it being serial in the chain or someting like that?
 

Shask

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So in theory would I just change those to match the low band caps If I wanted two low bands?, or would doing that cause a differnent result because of impedence and it being serial in the chain or someting like that?
Yeah, I would assume. The bass band uses .1, the mid band .012, and the high is .0027. So, it looks like the smaller the cap is, the higher the frequency gets. You could increase or decrease those to change the frequency bands.

The other opamps and resistors are setting how much boost/cut, and how much the Q varies, which you probably wouldnt want to change.
 

Shask

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So in theory would I just change those to match the low band caps If I wanted two low bands?, or would doing that cause a differnent result because of impedence and it being serial in the chain or someting like that?
This particular circuit is a little different, but this calculator is good for lots of pedals, to figure out what parts will create which frequencies.

 

c7spheres

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This particular circuit is a little different, but this calculator is good for lots of pedals, to figure out what parts will create which frequencies.

That's something I'm gotta play with. Thanks! : )
 

youngthrasher9

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This thread fucking delivers. So much info here. Is it really achieving OP’s goal? Not yet, but you guys are on to something.
 

c7spheres

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This thread fucking delivers. So much info here. Is it really achieving OP’s goal? Not yet, but you guys are on to something.
It'll work if someone can ever find a non rack eq to do it. So far only rack eq's it seems have these overlapping style bands. I really had my hopes up and wanted that WMD but it just don't have the right bands, unfortunately. - That's total BS kinda misleading the way they desribe it then only way below it says it. It's like all I needed to know was in the first two sentences and it was bad info. - Almost ordered somthing I didn't even need. Thanks for pointing that out @Gudbrand . I probably would've bought one. Close call.
 

Shask

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This thread fucking delivers. So much info here. Is it really achieving OP’s goal? Not yet, but you guys are on to something.
The problem is, it can't really be done. At least not completely. Depth/Resonance/Presence controls on a tube amp work because of the impedance feedback from the speaker through the output transformer, back through the phase inverter. SS amps don't have these things, so you can't really replicate that. Even units like the Axe-FX don't quite have this down yet. It keeps getting better, but not quite there. What this does is not only change the frequency response of the poweramp, but also the dynamic response. The poweramp changes dynamically to how you play, which is what causes the powerful chugs and such.

A Sonic Maximizer is basically a simple dynamic EQ. It has 2 bands of EQ, but they vary dynamically, unlike an EQ. That is why they are not just an EQ. It can kinda work because it has the EQ and the compression, but it is still not the same.

An EQ can get the frequencies, but dont vary dynamically, so still kinda there, but not completely.

I have messed with using a compressor in the effects loop. Again, can get some cool feel and changes in the dynamics of the poweramp, but still not quite the same.

I haven't messed much with a multiband compressor in the effects loop, but that could produce some interesting results. It would have the ability to tweak the magic combo of EQ and compression, but I am not sure how close it could be tweaked.

So, I think you could get something cool sounding using something that combined EQ and compression in some way, but I don't think it will ever be the same. Could be good enough though, depending on the person.
 

c7spheres

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The problem is, it can't really be done. At least not completely. Depth/Resonance/Presence controls on a tube amp work because of the impedance feedback from the speaker through the output transformer, back through the phase inverter. SS amps don't have these things, so you can't really replicate that. Even units like the Axe-FX don't quite have this down yet. It keeps getting better, but not quite there. What this does is not only change the frequency response of the poweramp, but also the dynamic response. The poweramp changes dynamically to how you play, which is what causes the powerful chugs and such.

A Sonic Maximizer is basically a simple dynamic EQ. It has 2 bands of EQ, but they vary dynamically, unlike an EQ. That is why they are not just an EQ. It can kinda work because it has the EQ and the compression, but it is still not the same.

An EQ can get the frequencies, but dont vary dynamically, so still kinda there, but not completely.

I have messed with using a compressor in the effects loop. Again, can get some cool feel and changes in the dynamics of the poweramp, but still not quite the same.

I haven't messed much with a multiband compressor in the effects loop, but that could produce some interesting results. It would have the ability to tweak the magic combo of EQ and compression, but I am not sure how close it could be tweaked.

So, I think you could get something cool sounding using something that combined EQ and compression in some way, but I don't think it will ever be the same. Could be good enough though, depending on the person.
- By chance do you know of any pedals or non rack eq's that have at least 2 sweepable bands with overlapping freq band in the sub/low area(20-50hz)? I can't find anything like it. It's mind boggling why they're not out there. I need this functionality all the time even if not using it for this application.
- With my rack it works really good, but I'm also using a tube power section. It works really well for all practcal purposes and feels great and customzable. I like my eq but it's 2 rack spaces. A little pedal or half rack etc = room for more pedals! : )
 

c7spheres

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I found this Revival Metric EQ that is almost it. It goes down to 70hz. I emailed Revival to see if they can mod it two have at least two bands go down to twenty. If it can tha'd be aweome. The impedence is like 100ohm on this so it' shoud work in a loop well. - I'm gonna do tests hopefully this weekend to see if 70 is low enough to get desied effects. Normally I'd say no but since this pedal as insane gain and insane Q factor it might already cover that territory anyways. I'll post back any results when I have them.
 

c7spheres

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Update; I wouldn't get it for the resonance trick. I emulated eq specs and stayed within those parameters (gain +-20db, 70hz lowest, Q's between 4 and .05) to see how it reacts.

- Long story short; - I didn't get a reply about mods this fast obviousy, but it doesn't matter anyways now, unless the frequencies can be modded lower and the Q's can be modded also to 10+
- This pedal only goes to a Q of 4. It won't work for the resonance thing. It seems for that specific trick it's gotta be at least a factor of 10+ to be a steep enough slope. - Max Q of 4 on the cut band is basically muddier no matter how you dial the boost band and that's all she's got captain.

- Again I emulated it, to test the freq bands, not the actual pedal. I'm sure the pedal is awsome, it's just not for this specific trick/setup.

- I created a 4 band modded version leaving same Q restrictions on it to double the power and it works, but only for sublte settings, and unless if the Q on the boost band is 1.8 or greater. It sounds good and noticably better, I guess, but it's almost just like the bass band on a BBE at that point, where it sounds good almost only in one spot and it's still not resonant like enough, to subtle of a slope. - It's pretty cool though on the 4 band version if I take bands 3/4 and make them 70 and the others 40. you can make things crunchy etc.

- OveraIl, I see no use for this one at this point (as a resonance emulator) unless some mod magic is possible. Mods needed would be for Q to be greater than 10 minimium, and freq as low as possible, but minimun of maybe 55, preferable 40 and below. That'd be nice for 2 of the bands and I could see making the third one a high shelf (not lo pass) if possible to be useful as a resonance/presense type emulator pedal thingy, but the Q really needs to be a lot stronger. The Q range on my PQX for example is about 0.35 to 30 (28.8), which gives it a lot of pull. Although it can't do 0.1 Q the massive pull of having up to 28 Q more than makes up for it and there's no probem getting it balanced etc.

- It's all fun and there's gotta be infinte things to be found in the various settings, but it does take away a little like all eq does in some form always, and add's a little something like eq always does, like if you do the v-curve, or jack the mids etc, the overall channel will be under that eq's control and charactered by it. This cut/boost does the same type thing, but the resonance trick has a very limited range it works within (though that's all thats needed to adjust/calibrate to taste), kinda like a real resonance band, and although it's not technically real, for all close your eye's and feel purposes, it's basically real.
- I can emulate my 2502's depth (damping/resonance) control pretty well within the 40/50hz range. - If I turn down the depth on 2502 and then turn it back up to where I like it, then it sounds and feels and does a ceratin thing. - If I leave it where I normally do (about 1:00) and use the Resonance trick bands, then within that small realm of adjusting I can effectively subtract it and have it much like the actual knob turned down instead, but the amp is damping diff and stlil loose and fat, it's like tightening the preamp up.
- If I leave the 2502 depth down and emulate turning it up on the Eq It's not exact, but it's it's own kinda cool thing almost like a Rocktron Velocity SS rez knob and usable and good. More in the speaker sim realm thing though. I can make it almost exactly like the 2502 still though if I sacrifice about half the volume/headroom though. The reason this might be desirable is because you'd get real life full damping and still get that reso thump, though emulated. Amp is tighter this way etc additionally you're not married to the resonance freq. of the amp control etither (it seems) and it's more customizable with the amp res freq out of the way mostly. It'd all depend on which flavor you like best.
- It seems also that to use what I call 'subract emulation' works better than 'addition emulation' because my 2502 is a real life damping/reso control. "Addition" style would potentially be best suited for solid state amps using this application is my guess, and if I load down and go direct headphones using solid state it seems to confirm it, and using my little crate solid state repair bench bass/keyboard type amp it seem to confirm as well. Add method seems best for soild state, cut for tube. I could see using the cut method on a flubby Reto to tighten it up, or using boost method on a seterile sounding SS. This is with my rig and settings though, I'm sure some combination exists that works better in the opposite ways too. All that being said I still just use my eq for balancing and mixing rather than shaping cause the Mesa and Fryette deliver on thier own (for me). Some other variations I tried were certainly usable and had me thinking of changing my settings up a bit, but I don't wanna go there right now (the tone rabbit hole). I gotta focus on playing more. haha.
 

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I think I might buy an AMT Tube Cake TC-3 power amp.

It’s only 3 watts, it’s solidstate, BUT it does say “depth” and “presence” on the knobs (hoping depth just sounds like resonance)
AMT makes some pretty impressive sounding solistate preamps. Maybe they have ss poweramps nailed down too.
 
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c7spheres

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I think I might buy an AMT Tube Cake TC-3 power amp.

It’s only 3 watts, it’s solidstate, BUT it does say “depth” and “presence” on the knobs (hoping depth just sounds like resonance)
AMT makes some pretty impressive sounding solistate preamps. Maybe they have ss poweramps nailed down too.
The description on the website says depth is for controlling resonance so that's what they're going for with it it appears.
 

c7spheres

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sidebar;

Here's the home page for that tech site.



It's got pretty much everything you'll ever need to know about everything. I love this stuff, though I'm not that smart. And some interseting one's form that same homepage;.
Sorry if to off topic



- There's so much random stuff but it's about sound, acoustics, and electronics basically.
 

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I was doing some experimenting with a couple of H&K amps I bought. I made a couple of clips of one to post in the h&K owners group to see if anyone could guess what amp I am using. One person said there was a lot of presence which there is because of the way the amp's eq has to be set up for clarity. I had a thought about being able to shape the lower end and high end. Listen to these two clips I made messing around with the amp and the captor x.

This one is without the resonance / presence like effect and the second is with it.


this one is with the effect



The clips are same amp, guitar, and IR. The eq is tweaked a little on the amp between the two but not dramatically so. The presence is lower on the amp because of the pedal.

I have an H&K Coreblade with Presence and Resonance and a Switchblade that lacks the resonance and your examples are pretty darn close to what I experience with both amps. They both sound good but in very different ways.
 


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