ShredmasterD
Calls it like it is.
there was an effect called a depth finder by amp tweaker. it goes in the effects loop. they aren't made anymore last check and are hard to find but its worth a shot
Tricks for faking a resonance control for your amp?
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Turd Ferguson
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Thanks for posting this. I was considering one of those, but I think you just made up my mind for me.
0rimus
SS.org Regular
Huh. I have no endorsement or affiliation with Guptech, but my experience is the exact opposite.
Did you try resetting all your preamp EQ before adding the PdeQ in there? Did you make sure it was the last pedal before the FX return? Even after delay and reverb?
The rig I'm using with the PdeQ sounds like complete bullocks with the pedal turned off. I can turn up the Resonance up and get more girth without it getting darker/boomier/muddier at all. Even dimed.
It resembles and acts in pretty much the exact same way as my EVH 5153 50w pres and res did.
My understanding is that it's literally a clone of the Amptweaker Depthfinder. But I mean, I didn't make either pedal, so I could be dead wrong.
Also I'm only using solid state, pedal format preamp pedals. Haven't ever tried it in the fx return of a tube head. That'd be a whole nother ball game.
Did you try resetting all your preamp EQ before adding the PdeQ in there? Did you make sure it was the last pedal before the FX return? Even after delay and reverb?
The rig I'm using with the PdeQ sounds like complete bullocks with the pedal turned off. I can turn up the Resonance up and get more girth without it getting darker/boomier/muddier at all. Even dimed.
It resembles and acts in pretty much the exact same way as my EVH 5153 50w pres and res did.
My understanding is that it's literally a clone of the Amptweaker Depthfinder. But I mean, I didn't make either pedal, so I could be dead wrong.
Also I'm only using solid state, pedal format preamp pedals. Haven't ever tried it in the fx return of a tube head. That'd be a whole nother ball game.
OP, It's that parametric eq 'trick" that I was talking about. What it's doing is using 2 bands of parametric for the Resonance and 2 for the presence. Each use the same principle. You boost one frequency bandwidth combination a lot and the other is cut a lot and by messing with the bandwidth/Q and the freqency depending on how you're guitar is tuned, amp is set etc.. you can get that Resonance type boost and smooth it or narrow it to taste. - It's how the hip hoppers get a kick drum to boom 808-esque trick. - You can use that problem peak dial in techinique with eq's, but leave it super boosted like that, then smooth out and shape form there. Then work on the cut version.
- Hard to explain. What happens is you can have one note or range of notes resonate more, but the more range it covers the smoother it gets and weaker it gets too and eventually you run out of functional gain because of phasing and lose the boom, and it's left cloudy sounding if you dial it out to far. That's what the presence set is for. So you can keep the fat or tight low end not boom or cloud it out. If you want to add more control you can have mid bands too. The thing is most EQ's won't do this because they have minimal crossover between frequency bands and/or can't be set to the same or near the same frequencies per band. Ideally you want an eq with a bunch of fully parametric bands. I doubt a Boss PEQ will get you there. The Empress para EQ might, but again, you need more powerful eq, probably not gonna happen. There's cab emulators out there too like the Suhr ACE and ADA GS but that's emulator's, not just adding rez and prez controls to your existing setup. If you're into rack units then there's some options, but still limited. There's surprisingly very few eq's outside the plugin realm that do this.
- Hard to explain. What happens is you can have one note or range of notes resonate more, but the more range it covers the smoother it gets and weaker it gets too and eventually you run out of functional gain because of phasing and lose the boom, and it's left cloudy sounding if you dial it out to far. That's what the presence set is for. So you can keep the fat or tight low end not boom or cloud it out. If you want to add more control you can have mid bands too. The thing is most EQ's won't do this because they have minimal crossover between frequency bands and/or can't be set to the same or near the same frequencies per band. Ideally you want an eq with a bunch of fully parametric bands. I doubt a Boss PEQ will get you there. The Empress para EQ might, but again, you need more powerful eq, probably not gonna happen. There's cab emulators out there too like the Suhr ACE and ADA GS but that's emulator's, not just adding rez and prez controls to your existing setup. If you're into rack units then there's some options, but still limited. There's surprisingly very few eq's outside the plugin realm that do this.
Turd Ferguson
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I've wondered about resonance ever since I got my 5150 in 1993 or whenever it was, because the manual says this:
Power Amp EQ
Active Presence +10 dB @ 2kHz (OK, easy enough to understand)
Active Resonance +10 dB @ cabinet resonant frequency
OK...so what cabinet? Any? Or the Peavey 5150 cab of that time? Does the amp somehow "sense" the resonant frequency of whatever it's plugged into from the signal coming back from the speaker?
I'm is confused.
Power Amp EQ
Active Presence +10 dB @ 2kHz (OK, easy enough to understand)
Active Resonance +10 dB @ cabinet resonant frequency
OK...so what cabinet? Any? Or the Peavey 5150 cab of that time? Does the amp somehow "sense" the resonant frequency of whatever it's plugged into from the signal coming back from the speaker?
I'm is confused.
youngthrasher9
Ur Mom Is Too Much Gain
That probably has to do with the way low end actually behaves in a cabinet. They could say 40hz but no guitar speaker is going to reproduce that, and you’d just get what would basically be the upper tail of that hump. That being said, you could venture to say if it was actually based on a specific frequency it would be the resonant peak of a Sheffield 1200.
It'd be whatever cab you connect it to.
- Probably has to do with backfeed from the speaker/transformer reaction if I had to guess, which the cab affects anytime it resonates, it will cause backfeed different than that as if there was no cab and only a speaker, because of sound pressure level inside the cab causing opposing pressure to the movement of the speaker, damping the backfeed at the resonant frequency and at the intensity the level is set at, so it can be controlled rather than having desired results at only one level possible. - This way you get it at other levels and freuqency too. The resonant frequency might be set still inside the 5150, but the cab is a filter which changes everything, so once that energy is absorbed into whatever cab, then it's dissipation will be at the cab's frequency instead because it's excess energy, and once it starts dissipating it's basically a full vessel that is eminating energy.- Any energy that can't escape will fight to go backwards back in to the amp/ transformer. This is backwards and the speaker is a kind of filter at that point but for energy/magnetism. If you set the level to low it's why it's sounds crappy cause there's a lack of exess and the orignal freqeuncy is blending with the cab rather than being filtered by it and resonanting it. It's all a balancing. It only works properly at a certain level and above. Below that level it's just an eq control and not a resonance control. At least that's what i tell myself. I could be totally wrong. haha.
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Bearitone
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Okay so I need to find the resonant frequency of my cabinet then. I know actuall tube amp resonance is an interaction between the cab and the power section, not a set EQ band. It can actually vary based on the cab. So, if what you’re saying is correct, I need to first find the resonant frequency of my cab and boost that with an eq. Maybe even use a multiband compressor at that eq range as well.
wheresthefbomb
SS.org Regular
I don't know if this is related, or even relevant, but I have definitely noticed that my 412s Sound Way better when they're directly on the floor and no wheels, specifically I find that they sound noticeably fuller, fatter, and have better bass response while retaining whatever clarity I've gotten from my EQ settings. This is a quality that I have always perceived/described as being "more resonant," but that's obviously a subjective assessment.
I'd leave the multiband out of it at first dialing because that'd kinda work against it. That'd be for after it's already dialed in for levelling, unless it's part of the actual main tone. It could shoot you in the foot later possibly, especially when working with filter or modulation effects, but applied as a leveller to control low end dynamics etc after main tone is forged, it then will be balanced and work with effects predictably and according to your playing.
- You don't really have to find the cab's resonant frequency perse. It probably has many at differet levels. It's built into the cab by it's nature and it's really always happening on some level if it's vibrating, but what were talking about is when it gets to a certain loudness when playing loud and it lets you know it and that 7th or 9th fret palm chug farts out 10x louder than everythign else (for example) then the resonance control normally should be used to control that stuff to balance the level. - But what it's become is the boom-stick of amps! - It's being used for resonance rather than to control / minimize it. Everyone's using it the wrong way because for heavy tones the wrong way is the better way / tone. So it's now the right way because it's become part of the tone now. Cleaner styles may use it the other way to avoid boom and mudd still but heavy uses it, for it.
- Yet, you can also ignore the cab resonance altogether and focus on the speakers resonant fequency too. Rather than try to eq or deal with the speakers resonant fart you can dial most it out with the res/pres controls, then re eq amp form there. It's all different flavors of tone. This is like taking the fart out of the speaker then getting levels loud and eq'ing tone. Doing it like this though turns out really loud and forward but kinda harsh and thin, ime. Maybe good for the djenty thing? I dunno. The thing is though, at low levels you're gonna get a flatter response type of feel. - I'd go with the first way though if you want heavy chugs.
- Sorry if I'm not explaining well, but basically both ways are adjusting the resonance and interacting with the speaker itself, but in one scenario you're using it to dial the actual speakers resonance, and the other way is still doing that, but your focusing on the cabinets resonance, instead of the speakers, and using the res control to dial that, thus ignoring the speakeres resonant freqency. - You can only adjust one or the other at a time with the res control unless parametic EQ's are brought into play. There will always be a compromise without one unless the cab/speaker/amp eq all gel. Parametrics eliminate any potential issues .
- For practical purposes you just get things dialed in at the level you want and mess with it to get the feel you want, but which to use is just flavor. It's better to dial it in at jam level/recordnig level, or actually whatever level you want it to be at almost all the time when you play. If you play live you'd want to use stage volume. If only for recording it's about the captured sound. If only at band practice then full-bliss jam levels etc.
- I'm working on some Eq band starting points/frequency etc to get you started on a Resonance/Presence simulator. I'll have it type up in a while. Just got done doing a couple experiments cause I wanted a refresher on this stuff and forgot how it worked. It's pretty interesting to revisit and figure you may like if nterested. It's pretty lengthy though.
It's true. Some people strap their cabs to the stage with moving straps (but I think that's more so they don't fall over when being jumped from).
- Coupling definitely helps tone and feel. Decoupling is like when it's on wheels, those metal spike feet, iso pads risers, amp stands etc. for when you don't want it to resonate through to the snare or the low end into the mics as much etc. It's funny how we can even tell at those levels, but I can tell too. It's the feel - Think about it. If you have something vibrating (like a massager. lol) and push it harder into something it transfers the energy more solidly rather than loose and buzzy. Yes. I'm talking about massagers on a Sunday at 5am. : )
sevenfoxes
SS.org Regular
Somic Stomp all the way. It did wonders for my Peavey Ultra Plus. It basically was like adding resonance and presence knobs to the amp.
Bearitone
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Holy cow thank you for the lengthy write up. Please follow up with anything interesting you find while tweaking to simulate res/pres. you’re awesome man
Bearitone
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I’ll try this. They seem to be pretty cheap used and while there are some haters, I know some people have these as “always on” pedals.
sevenfoxes
SS.org Regular
I think they have their haters because the pedal responds differently to each amp. Like i said, the Stomp did wonders for my Ultra+, but didn’t do much for some of my other amps that already had a resonance and presence control.
Some people also overuse the effect of the pedal, which can destroy your tone, so i think some people hear that and go “What a pile of shit!”.
So i think the hate comes from user error and misunderstanding more than anything.
GreatGreen
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Yes! In a way. I'm sure it's explained better above but I'll throw my hat in the ring for yet another explanation.
Picture a guitar string. Hit the string with a pick and it will freely ring out until it naturally stops vibrating. Now, picture a small machine you can attach to the string that wraps around a small part of the string, and when you want the string to vibrate, the machine grabs the string and vibrates it exactly how the machine wants the string to vibrate, and when you want silence, the machine instantly stops and the string stops with it. The machine has 100% control of the string 100% of the time.
The "machine attached to the string" analogy is is basically how "damping" works in amplifiers and speaker cabinets. The more damping you have, the more control you have over the speaker, the more its behavior resembles the "machine controlling the string" mechanism. The less damping you have, the more the speaker freely resonates, like just plucking a guitar string and letting it ring. A speaker isn't as good at naturally sustaining as a guitar string, but it will wobble back and fourth a bit extra if there's no active magnetic force that is attempting to "dampen" the movement of the cone. The specific way it wobbles, meaning specifically which frequencies at which it most freely wobbles around, is controlled by the internal volume of the cab, the way the air moves in the cab, etc. This is typically represented per cab by an "impedance curve" and it is typically very exaggerated in the lows and highs, and subdued in the mids. Basically kind of a rough "V" curve.
Tube amps have almost no natural damping. Hitting a note in a tube amp is basically like freely plucking that guitar string. The speaker just moves however it wants in the cab. And it will produce greater movement at those frequencies at which the cab allows the speaker to vibrate. Tube amps do have a mechanism to increase damping though, it's called "Negative Feedback."
Presence and Depth controls are actually controls that dial in the specific amount of negative feedback in the power section. The funny thing about these controls is that they're usually wired "backwards" in that the higher the Presence knob, the lower the amount of negative feedback is applied to the poweramp, and the higher the Depth control, the less negative feedback is applied to the lower frequencies.
To sum all that up, Presence and Depth are actually just controls that as you turn them up, simply decrease the tube amp's ability to control free speaker vibration. Turning up the Depth allows the speaker to vibrate more freely in the low ferquencies, and turning up the Presence allows the speaker to vibrate more freely in the high frequencies.
The reason the Peavey manual specifies the Presence frequency and not the Depth is because the Presence basically hits all frequencies above whatever the circuit dictates starting at whatever specific frequency the designer wants, and high natural resonance of speakers typically behaves in a predictable way throughout all amps, where speaker resonance basically always increases into infinity as you get higher and higher into the frequency spectrum. However, the Depth controls are dependent on the cab and the low natural resonance of a speaker doesn't increase into infinity as you get lower, instead cabs usually have a measurable absolute resonant peak (unlike Presence) which usually peaks around 70-120 Hz or so depending on the cab.
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@GreatGreen Thanks, that's what was missing from my reply. Negative feedback and damping . Less is more. : )
Bearitone
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So can someone help me understand why Resonance/Depth is only ever seen on tube amps. Can solid state power sections not do the same thing? Is there someone I can pay to actually add a resonance control to my solidstate power section? Or is it a physical one impossibility?
There's solid states power amps with them like the Rocktron poweramps and stuff but not sure of any amps/heads that are solid state with them. I think they shoud be standard on every amp.
- Thank Fryette for inventing it (pretty sure he's the one) and thank Massenburg for inventing the parametric. EQ. - I'm not certain but I think Fryette invented it, but didn't patent it, then someone else ripped it off (might have been Randall Smith from Boogie?) if I remember it right. I remember something was sinful about me mixing Fryettes and Boogie, that might have been it. And now Fryette comes around full circle with the Synergy iicp module! : )
Shask
SS.org Regular
Solid State amps dont have feedback circuits like tube amps do. It is basically a circuit that feeds from the output transformer back into the phase inverter that alters the frequency response of the power amp.
jarledge
SS.org Regular
I was doing some experimenting with a couple of H&K amps I bought. I made a couple of clips of one to post in the h&K owners group to see if anyone could guess what amp I am using. One person said there was a lot of presence which there is because of the way the amp's eq has to be set up for clarity. I had a thought about being able to shape the lower end and high end. Listen to these two clips I made messing around with the amp and the captor x.
This one is without the resonance / presence like effect and the second is with it.
this one is with the effect
The clips are same amp, guitar, and IR. The eq is tweaked a little on the amp between the two but not dramatically so. The presence is lower on the amp because of the pedal.
This one is without the resonance / presence like effect and the second is with it.
this one is with the effect
The clips are same amp, guitar, and IR. The eq is tweaked a little on the amp between the two but not dramatically so. The presence is lower on the amp because of the pedal.
