1. Mr. Big Noodles

    Mr. Big Noodles Theory God

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    I need somebody to teach me about tihai and chakardar tihai. Is it necessary to know all that stuff about bols? If that's the case, I need help understanding that too. :lol:
     
  2. 80H

    80H Banned

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    Something theoretical I get to share with sensei????? YES!

    Flashback about 7~8 months. I'm at a small kickback with friends and there's a guy named Rakesh playing an acoustic...that he named Rakesh. He has this badass triple polyrhythm going on between strumming+tapping+percussion that sounds bluesy, but he's doing a ton of these weird quarter/half step bends with vibrato that gives it this really bizarro kinda alternate reality, psychedelic feel that totally captured the Indian sound. It was awesome.

    But what I was really interested in was the fact that I couldn't pin down what he was doing rhythmically, which I thought was one of my strong suits. We talked for a bit, and he mentioned "tihai" (!) and a bunch of other words that I couldn't understand but didn't wanna keep saying "what?" about. After that night, I spent a decent amount of time looking up elements of Indian/Eastern composition, but I admittedly have neglected them as I am currently obsessed with other ethnic feels.


    So, it's important for me to clear the air here and say I am no master at this subject, but the fundamental backdrop for the information changed what I think/believe/understand about music, so maybe it'll do a little bit of good for you. Shit, you've explained enough to me, hope I can return the favor. I eventually just discarded the notion of the word "tihai" altogether, because the understanding transcends the language used to explain the musical phenomenon.


    In between me trying to break down what Rakesh was doing and him showing me his more complex patterns, he made it very clear to me that I was basically a rhythmic heretic to him. He was cool about it though.


    Rakesh explained everything with X, Y and Z, with Z just being the whole number being represented by the pattern & no, I'm pretty sure you don't need bols, those are just basically ways to help with rhythmic groupings just like konnokol. Could do the shit with 1-e-and-a if you wanted. I might be wrong about that part but I would bet money on me being right if that says anything.


    Just start simple with [XYXYXY]. Anything can be X, but all the X's need to be the same. Anything can be Y, but all the Y's need to be the same. This part I remember is on the wiki, so I'd give you examples but they're already written here: Tihai - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


    Then there's all the possibilities for playing other rhythms against the tihai or breaking the continuity of the tihai for an abrupt rhythmic return to your pulse. The general idea is that a distinct, rhythmic mark creates an effect that sort of parallels cadence in that it can be used to create a gravity towards a certain point. That translates to it being a pretty sweet tool for key changes, rhythmic changes, introductions of new themes/motifs/w/e.


    Anyways, the important part of this is understanding the way the final X or Y is placed before whatever is coming up next (unless it's the end of the road). A piece could be composed entirely of "tihais," because they're just rhythmic structures, but that would diminish the understanding of it as a tool for creating that nice marked change or movement without even necessarily having to change the key or chords up very much, if at all.

    But then shit gets crazy when you start ordering the X's and Y's into larger groups, and the sky is pretty much the limit at this point (aka, welcome to endgame mr noodles :D) It's also important to realize that there are common tihais that exist within possible tihais, much like 4/4 isn't actually all that people could be playing in.


    & the Chakradhar. Basically, you make really long patterns with really long rests. Yep. Just put some patterns within your patterns, get a tihai alternation going and you are supreme theory god of one more nation.


    XYYXYYXYY XYYYXYYYXYYY etc. I think once you stop continuous alternation, it is no longer considered a tihai, buuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuut hey that's some pretty salty gravy and I'm not about to try it. aka idk. :)


    But hey, you can jam on these things pretty hard. 4/2/4/2/4 loops pretty nicely and I would say it's a good window, but you would probably get bored of that one easily. Maybe try like 13/3/13/3/13 or add a 3 at the end there, but I totally recommend just playing with that structure. Loop it a couple of times and then just play a relatively simple solo in 4/4 and notice how badass the setup and transition is when compared to a more traditional bridge.
     
  3. Mr. Big Noodles

    Mr. Big Noodles Theory God

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    Thanks for replying. I knew there had to be someone here who had some understanding of this stuff, and I figured it would be you. I'll have to revisit this later, but I have questions in the interim.

    Ah, the ego. Or possibly the language barrier. Or maybe even the spiritual connection to the music that transcends the comprehension of us mere mortals.

    So, is this a tihai?

    [​IMG]

    Teentaal, 16 beat cycle, so it's basically 4 measures of 4. I'm doing XYXYX as 4+2+4+2+4. To make things easier to see, Y is all triplets.

    How does this stuff work with additive meters? I'm trying to use this in a piece that sticks with 11/16 (2+2+3+2+2) the entire time, and a measure goes by pretty fast (Q=115), so it's not really the same thing as an "11 beat cycle". I'm basically trying to synthesize Balkan rhythms and Indian rhythms. Does the tihai need to fit within one single cycle/measure, or could I do something like 2+1+2+1+2, where those numbers correspond to measures rather than beats?
     
  4. 80H

    80H Banned

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    It was more or less a rebellious joke against the world. Guy was funny. People name all their guitars these sweet, feminine names, so he was like...what is the antithesis of what these people are doing...RAKESH!


    Super simple, it's just the math gets hairy sometimes.


    Your example is very close, and I'm pretty sure it's even right generally speaking, but you definitely need to rethink the sum. Basically, you don't really want to ever be ending the pattern with a rest; you can, but it isn't the same thing as the tihai. The point of the tihai is either to mark the end or mark significance, but it is also jamworthy, so that can get confusing. Basically, traditional tihai = strictly for establishing significance or signifying an end, where the general western understanding would probably be closer to tihai = rhythmic pattern or cycle. But with a formal tihai, you want that last beat to be the first equivalent beat of the next measure, ex: if you're playing 4 groups of quarter notes, you want that first quarter note of the next measure to be the last note of your next phrase. The possibilities then start opening up when you play with different note durations and get down with your bad self.

    After a few minutes of google, I found someone that I think has already explained the last parts you need to understand all this, & he's as Indian as I've ever been convinced by a name (and his site is pretty sweet beyond the tihai info too)

    ‘TIHAI’ & the Psychology of Threes | WijeratneWorks


    Pretty stoked I found this guy's blog, guy seems like a beast. That post is solid gold.

    And damn, that post gets intense more towards the end. Dayum. It's especially apparent how badass these can be in the audio examples.
     
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  5. CD1221

    CD1221 SS.org Regular

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    I thought OP had finally snapped and was going for a profound troll as a laugh then I read the next post and felt for sure it was all a joke then I read the Noodly response and 80s followup and clicked on 80s link and now my head is all :flame:


    Awesome thread guys. Cheers.
     
  6. 80H

    80H Banned

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    If it helps, my head is all :whateverthatfaceis: after that too. Digesting the basis of another culture's perception of rhythmic structure and cadence takes work. I had a few things backwards, I was overdoing a few things, I didn't really see the whole concept of 3's, my uses of the last "dha"s in my play hasn't been nearly as badass as either of the two audio examples (ok well it has but on accident, lemme get some humble in here).

    Communal learning is like learning that took steroids but didn't lose any ball radii
     
  7. Rizzo

    Rizzo SS.org Regular

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    Even though i am still musically as ignorant as i can be (i don't even know the plain basics, so i didn't even understand the premises for this, bear with me) this stuff is always fascinating as fvck.
    Damn, this reminds me why i love music.
    Wish i had some better understanding of it :(
    Cheers guys, you're an inspiration!
     
  8. Solodini

    Solodini MORE RESTS!

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    Just work on counting basic rhythms, Rizzo. You'll get there quicker than you think.
     
  9. 80H

    80H Banned

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    Remember that love for music. If you love music, you will love theory in a semi-abusive relationship kinda way. Yeah it gets thick sometimes, but there is a reward for cutting through all the bullshit and advancing yourself. Keep it in mind; I used to be right there where you are, and I'm pretty close to the end of the road here in terms of doing this for a living and being able to live the life that I want.

    All of the information you need to reach a collegiate level understanding of music is freely available on the Internet if you are willing to seek it and ask the right questions. The rate at which you find and process this information is up to you.

    Yup. Count 7 quarter notes against a metronome, and accent the seven. Then count 2, silently count 3, play 2 more, silently count 3, play 2 more. You have created a rhythmic cycle. If you repeat it after you play those last 2 quarter notes, you will notice an odd effect where the last 2 quarternotes and the first 2 quarternotes of the next pattern join together (2323223232). If you notice that double 2 there, that basically creates a 4, and that gives that pattern a different feel because the accents can get ambiguous, you can veer off of the pattern via syncopation and you will still maintain that sense of evenness through a constant pulse/metronome. All of this can be done while essentially playing 7/4.

    The actual tihai, though, is achieved with that last quarternote getting slid into the beginning of the next measure and ending the pattern. It creates a polyrhythm against a pulse, which can be given or just implied by accents over time. It's neat-o.
     
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