The Carvin / Kiesel thread

[gunch]

its strange how things change so drastically in such a short amount of time.

not too long ago i had a lot of respect for Carvin/kiesel. but as years are progressing, i'm getting turned off by them as a company. mainly due to the way Jeff handles himself and the customers. regardless of how the guitars play, i'm just not willing to play the CT424 any longer.

i may have gotten it for myself as a graduation present. it maybe beautiful. it may play well. but i'm just not feeling it any longer. and it saddens me as there aren't a whole lot of companies that offer the same specs that interest me for a price that interests me. even if i am doubling the budget of a carvin/kiesel, i'm still coming up empty handed.

regardless, the carvin goes.

If the headstock still says Carvin I wouldn't get rid of it, The company that made your guitar and the company today are completely separate, different entities.

Your guitar reflects what the company used to be (while not perfect or prestigious, a quietly dignified semi-custom factory direct maker) and IMO that at least counts for something.

 

[iamaom]

If the headstock still says Carvin I wouldn't get rid of it,

Nah dude, get rid of it. It's a relic of the past, you need to move on. I'll take it off your hands, won't even charge for it. No need to thank me, just PM me the mailing info.

 

[laxu]

its strange how things change so drastically in such a short amount of time.

not too long ago i had a lot of respect for Carvin/kiesel. but as years are progressing, i'm getting turned off by them as a company. mainly due to the way Jeff handles himself and the customers. regardless of how the guitars play, i'm just not willing to play the CT424 any longer.

i may have gotten it for myself as a graduation present. it maybe beautiful. it may play well. but i'm just not feeling it any longer. and it saddens me as there aren't a whole lot of companies that offer the same specs that interest me for a price that interests me. even if i am doubling the budget of a carvin/kiesel, i'm still coming up empty handed.

regardless, the carvin goes.

That seems like a silly reason to sell a guitar that you like. I'm sure we all own products that might have been previously owned or made by people we would not like, we just don't know about it. The best way to stick it to Jeff is to simply not buy a Kiesel. Carvin has already had your business, selling your guitar and losing money is only going to hurt you.

 

[Spaced Out Ace]

That seems like a silly reason to sell a guitar that you like. I'm sure we all own products that might have been previously owned or made by people we would not like, we just don't know about it. The best way to stick it to Jeff is to simply not buy a Kiesel. Carvin has already had your business, selling your guitar and losing money is only going to hurt you.

If they have to hold their nose when playing their guitar and it lessens the enjoyment they get out of it, then I don't see it as a "silly reason."

 

[Wolfhorsky]

As crazy as it seems @soliloquy has his own reasons. As the matter of fact, us hobbists use guitars to have some fun. When there is no fun factor, no bonding, no chemistry, just sell it and move on. Life is too short to compromise on things that should give us some joy.

 

[Jonathan20022]

Same reason I sold my Kiesels after I had my fallout with them. Guitars were sick, and I had an incredibly hard time finding a good 8 string to replace my Vader 8 after selling it. But if the person doesn't feel like they enjoy their instrument anymore because of events or reasons of their own, that's still valid.

 

[purpledc]

That seems like a silly reason to sell a guitar that you like. I'm sure we all own products that might have been previously owned or made by people we would not like, we just don't know about it. The best way to stick it to Jeff is to simply not buy a Kiesel. Carvin has already had your business, selling your guitar and losing money is only going to hurt you.

If I chose to not play a guitar because of such hang ups, I probably would be a drummer.

 

[MatiasTolkki]

its strange how things change so drastically in such a short amount of time.

not too long ago i had a lot of respect for Carvin/kiesel. but as years are progressing, i'm getting turned off by them as a company. mainly due to the way Jeff handles himself and the customers. regardless of how the guitars play, i'm just not willing to play the CT424 any longer.

i may have gotten it for myself as a graduation present. it maybe beautiful. it may play well. but i'm just not feeling it any longer. and it saddens me as there aren't a whole lot of companies that offer the same specs that interest me for a price that interests me. even if i am doubling the budget of a carvin/kiesel, i'm still coming up empty handed.

regardless, the carvin goes.

Well you probably know my name (now banned from the Kiesel BBS for a BS reason btw), but I am feeling the EXACT same way. I have a recital coming up on Nov 12, and as good as my Kiesel and Carvin play, I am not feeling em since Jeff's horrible attitude since the announcement of the death of the 22 pole piece pickups. The way he announced that was such a slap in the face of everyone who had been supporting the company for MUCH longer than I have (someone like Doctor Turn for example). I have literally picked up my JB200 once, and since I bought it before the split, I still feel like I can play it but my V220 (Kiesel branded)? Havent touched it. Only been playing my E-II and Ibanezes recently.

 

[crankyrayhanky]

Well you probably know my name (now banned from the Kiesel BBS for a BS reason btw), but I am feeling the EXACT same way. I have a recital coming up on Nov 12, and as good as my Kiesel and Carvin play, I am not feeling em since Jeff's horrible attitude since the announcement of the death of the 22 pole piece pickups. The way he announced that was such a slap in the face of everyone who had been supporting the company for MUCH longer than I have (someone like Doctor Turn for example). I have literally picked up my JB200 once, and since I bought it before the split, I still feel like I can play it but my V220 (Kiesel branded)? Havent touched it. Only been playing my E-II and Ibanezes recently.

What was his attitude? Was it something like "I'm not making these anymore and that's how it is"?
It is a business after all. Like when you run a restaurant, putting out a big menu is usually not a great idea. Kiesel has a huge menu with constant new offerings, sometimes you have to chop things out, no?

I love my AM7. Want some more Kiesel in my life

 

[KOFI]

its strange how things change so drastically in such a short amount of time.

not too long ago i had a lot of respect for Carvin/kiesel. but as years are progressing, i'm getting turned off by them as a company. mainly due to the way Jeff handles himself and the customers. regardless of how the guitars play, i'm just not willing to play the CT424 any longer.

i may have gotten it for myself as a graduation present. it maybe beautiful. it may play well. but i'm just not feeling it any longer. and it saddens me as there aren't a whole lot of companies that offer the same specs that interest me for a price that interests me. even if i am doubling the budget of a carvin/kiesel, i'm still coming up empty handed.

regardless, the carvin goes.

I'm kind of in the same boat as you but I love my Carvin and I will not stop playing it. It really is a good guitar. One of the best ones I ever played. I just won't won't promote Carvin/Kiesel like I once did.

I think Jeff is one arrogant somebody. I watched a few of his facebook videos and the narcissism just oozes out. I won't deny he can build a guitar and seems like he has taken the company to another level. It's his personality that turns me off. Humbleness goes a long way in my book.

He acts like a man child. He loves his fans and is your best friend as long as you give him praise but the minute you criticize 1 little thing about "his" company, it's all over. And the constant use of "my guys" drives me insane.

I could go on and on. I can't stand his attitude. I'll always cherish my pre-split Carvin guitar but I don't think I can see myself buying a Kiesel. I don't have a desire to support Jeff's company.

 

[KOFI]

And another thing about Jeff is the double talk.

I've heard him say on several occasions "I'm doing all of this for you guys" and a few minutes later followed by "I'm only building guitars that's I'm interested in and if you don't like it stop following me" It's like he's doing us a big favor and then saying screw you I'm doing what I want with or without you. He needs to work on some PR skills.

I can't quite pinpoint what it is...I just think everything about his personality turns me off.

I think I vented enough.

 

[MatiasTolkki]

What was his attitude? Was it something like "I'm not making these anymore and that's how it is"?
It is a business after all. Like when you run a restaurant, putting out a big menu is usually not a great idea. Kiesel has a huge menu with constant new offerings, sometimes you have to chop things out, no?

I love my AM7. Want some more Kiesel in my life

Basically, Jeff was like "Oh i have to tell you guys. The 22 pole piece pickups are being phased out. I know a lot of people are going to be upset." End of comment. Also, it wasn't all about WHAT he said rather than HOW he said it. It was full of Jeff's typical full of himself, hating on the people who supported the company for a long time (from the Carvin days).

 

[MatiasTolkki]

I could go on and on. I can't stand his attitude. I'll always cherish my pre-split Carvin guitar but I don't think I can see myself buying a Kiesel. I don't have a desire to support Jeff's company.

I have a Kiesel (a V220) and tbh, the way the paint came chipped in the trem cavity and the way you can see the white primer coats on the neck where they SHOULD have painted but didn't, I was pretty disappointed compared to my JB200C, which just had a little excess paint in the trem cavity. I mean the guitar plays GREAT but that situation compiled with the discontinuation of the M series pickups means no more kiesels for me.

Now to be fair, I DID buy the V220 a year ago. Maybe things have changed? Not sure.

 

[spudmunkey]

What was his attitude? Was it something like "I'm not making these anymore and that's how it is"?
It is a business after all. Like when you run a restaurant, putting out a big menu is usually not a great idea. Kiesel has a huge menu with constant new offerings, sometimes you have to chop things out, no?

I love my AM7. Want some more Kiesel in my life

Basically, Jeff was like "Oh i have to tell you guys. The 22 pole piece pickups are being phased out. I know a lot of people are going to be upset." End of comment. Also, it wasn't all about WHAT he said rather than HOW he said it. It was full of Jeff's typical full of himself, hating on the people who supported the company for a long time (from the Carvin days).

Well...I mean...actually, no.

He started by talking about the two new pickups they are working on (yes, I understand they aren't ready yet...but the other pickups weren't pulled without notice yet either...they are still available...so nothing's changed from 3 weeks ago in terms of availability), including the vintage-voiced ones from his dad, which he seemed excited about (and used those exact words). He said he enjoys being able to work on projects with his dad, and mentioned that they were still looking for a purchaser so that his dad could step out of that role and mentioned how cool it would be for him to be able to just "play" and design a new model of guitar.

And then he, verbatim, said:
"And also for you guys that love the 22 pole piece pickups, I am giving you guys a heads up that we are not going to be restocking any of the parts for them, so once they are gone, they are gone. Me and my dad made that decision together. He actually brought it up. It was his idea, and I said, 'yeah, that's...I'm good with that.' We will not be making those at some point. So if you love 'em, go online a buy 'em, buy several sets; I'm not offering any discounts because I'm discontinuing them at some point, so as soon as they are gone, they are gone. I don't know if that's 3 months, or a year and a half. I don't know, but somewhere in that ballpark."

Boy, you can just feel the "hating on the people who supported the company", can't you?

And you mention you were banned for "some BS reason"...I'm not a mod or anything, but you were basically saying you were going to spam their social media presence with memes that insult the VP of the company, calling him a liar (a specific word you used). I remember you also asked a question in a very accusatory/confrontational manner on a open-to-thepublic live Q&A video and when they skipped your question, you had a public hissy fit and tried to poke the chest of the social media guy, accusing him of purposely skipping your question because jeff can't "handle the truth" or something along those lines.

Not to mention anytime someone mentioned the word "lithium" on their forum and Facebook, which I'm sure nobody needs to be reminded are both branches of their marketing and the public online presence of the company, you couldn't just say you "don't like them" or "they don't sound good for X and Y types of music"...instead you had to preach and write manifestos about how they were about the worst pickups you've ever heard, in ways that were likely insulting to their customers who did like them. Even going from "I don't like Stanley staplers" to "Stanley brand staplers suck" is one thing...but it's another thing to go to "Stanley staplers are shit compared to Swingline. I don't know why anyone would want those crappy Stanley staplers, and those that do are likely stupid and only staple shitty romance novels".

Frankly, I'm surprised it took as long as it did.

 

[spudmunkey]

And another thing about Jeff is the double talk.

I've heard him say on several occasions "I'm doing all of this for you guys" and a few minutes later followed by "I'm only building guitars that's I'm interested in and if you don't like it stop following me" It's like he's doing us a big favor and then saying screw you I'm doing what I want with or without you. He needs to work on some PR skills.

I can see why his personality/mannerisms are a turn off to some(many?), but those two comments are not talking about the same topics. Offering discounted runs is something he does "for you guys". Not wanting to offer 24.75" scale is "I want to build things I like". I don't see that as double-talk. Offering more new no-upcharge colors and offering more custom (even if high-dollar) options is "for you guys", and not offering an SG-alike is "I want to build things I like".

 

[MatiasTolkki]

Except that, he said, during the split, the old pickups were going nowhere, then all of a sudden, "Oh they're going. Tough luck." That is lying, or even if you want to give the benefit of the doubt, double speak.

If you noticed in ANY of the posts I mentioned about memes, the way I wrote them was in a joking way. Someone asked for a meme of Jason Becker and the 22 pole piece pickups and I did a quick one for someone. I never said I was going to spam memes either, I said maybe i should post some memes to get Jeff's attention, since he didn't seem interested in listening to anyone on the forums anyway.

And yes, i've always had very strong hate for the lithiums. Since when is it a problem to give my opinion of them? It's not like people are getting the stronger opinions about them anyway (but it's okay to gush over them like a beautiful woman. Hypocrisy anyone?). Who else was as vocal as me in terms of taking a shotgun to the kneecaps of those ice picks? I didn't see anyone besides me doing it, and while you may disagree with my methods, people need to hear from people who absolutely despise them like I do. Sure I may be in the minority, but if my anti-lithium sentiments helped sway even 1 person away from them, I am completely happy with that (and you can't prove that it DIDN'T change anyone's opinion, nor can I prove it did. This is just how I feel about it).

 

[spudmunkey]

Except that, he said, during the split, the old pickups were going nowhere, then all of a sudden, "Oh they're going. Tough luck." That is lying, or even if you want to give the benefit of the doubt, double speak.

Nearly 3 years later. i feel like that's ample warning, and an allowable timeframe to change a mind. Jaguar said they would never build an SUV. They've got 2 now. Ferrari said the same thing, but even in stronger terms. Now the CEO says one will "probably happen".

I never said I was going to spam memes either, I said maybe i should post some memes to get Jeff's attention, since he didn't seem interested in listening to anyone on the forums anyway.

OK, so the word "spam" was hyperbole...but maybe your posts could be taken in a joking manner if it didn't continue post after post, through several posts across several pages. I don't recall who made it, but others participated including making ones that disparaged current endorsed artists. I mean...you see *why* they didn't tolerate that, right? You show up on my lawn with a blown-up photo of my mother, scribbled with sharpie to give her a black eye, missing tooth and evil eye brows (besides the ones she already has ), and...well...you'd have to expect what was coming to you, right?

And yes, i've always had very strong hate for the lithiums. Since when is it a problem to give my opinion of them? It's not like people are getting the stronger opinions about them anyway (but it's okay to gush over them like a beautiful woman. Hypocrisy anyone?). Who else was as vocal as me in terms of taking a shotgun to the kneecaps of those ice picks? I didn't see anyone besides me doing it, and while you may disagree with my methods, people need to hear from people who absolutely despise them like I do. Sure I may be in the minority, but if my anti-lithium sentiments helped sway even 1 person away from them, I am completely happy with that (and you can't prove that it DIDN'T change anyone's opinion, nor can I prove it did. This is just how I feel about it).

Well, you feel the way you do and there's no reason to deny or argue with that at all, but...I mean...a suicide bomber doesn't live to fight another day, and that thread was deleted (which again, is nothing new...it's always been a heavily moderated forum for years and years).

Just to give context, I don't know if you saw the post, but around page 15 I posted some stats on the thread. nearly 60% of the posts in the thread were from the same 2 people across those 15 pages, and I think you had 40% of the posts in the thread at that time. After that page the number of unique posters continued to drop. In total I think there were about 30 people who posted in that thread...out of the roughly 12,000+ registered users. So even if all 30 were lamenting the loss, that's about 0.2%. Even when I posted it on facebook in the group with 16,000+ members and many more active members, I think there was less than 80 total reactions and maybe 50 post replies. Even if everyone who posted and reacted was a unique member and everyone lamented the loss, that's still a whopping 0.8%.

Am I saying these folks don't matter? Of course not. but they have a business to run, and I can imagine seeing Carvin Audio fold put the fear of god in their hearts. Low-demand products that take unique parts *should* be the first things to be trimmed from the product offering.

 

[MatiasTolkki]

Well I did spend a good chunk of time talking to Mike last night (before i went to sleep, at like 1am here) and he was happy we talked it out calmly and everything. I made no qualms about being banned btw, I think it's a meh reason, but that's me. that's just my own perception of it, but if they wanna ban me that's fine. I even told Mike straight from the outset that I don't expect to be unbanned, I just wanna give my perspective of things and how Jeff, in the very first livestream mentioning the pickup issue, seemed to be taking a veiled shot at everyone who was going to be upset over it, loyal customers who have bought more than one guitar from them.

That's a dead conversation though, both of us already went through that whole 20-something page now-deleted thread discussing that and we dont have to rehash that whole thing all over again

Yeah I saw that post, and I knew full well I was posting the most. I basically replied to every last person who posted When someone said something, I felt the desire to reply to certain people, and it turned out I replied a LOT. That doesn't bother me though.

Oh I know the business side of it, and understand the situation. I was riled up, pissed off, and all sorts of other things over it. Yeah I let my temper get the best of me and I could've chosen different ways to word things, but everyone knows that when you see red in your eyes, you kinda don't keep control on the things you say

 

[marcwormjim]

The only thing here that still surprises me is how late in the game Carvin fans are noticing that Jeff Kiesel has more in common with Kim Jong Un than he does with his dad.

He uses the title he inherited to put more effort into policing his public image than retaining the inherited customer base, and regularly demands respect he hasn't earned from potential customers who are only present because they're fans of his dad. He also acts on the belief that publicly shaming customers who dare to share a negative experience is benevolent.

He and his paid goons are banned from this site for precisely the above behavior, and the long-time posters at the former CarvinBBS generally fail to see that Jeff is only paying to maintain their playground because his dad built it - He has zero interest in acknowledging the people using it until he hears that there's dissent there to be quelled with bannings, thread deletions, and a pinned thread specifying that "respect" is mandated.

I do. not. understand posters saying "I used to love Carvin" or "Carvin's gone downhill" - Carvin Guitars has not existed since 2015. It ended there. Just because its legacy has been sunsetted over the past two and a half years is no reason to pretend Mark Kiesel's Carvin Guitars has been operating this whole time from under a beveled coat of neon-burst paint.

People need to understand that we all actually still love Carvin, for the same reason you still love any deceased loved one: Just because Jeff is defiling grandpa's corpse is no reason to blame grandpa for what you're seeing. Remember your lost loved ones the way they were, and not for who's currently living in their house and letting the grass die - There's a new name on the mailbox, anyway.

And you have to just let the brand go. It's not going to get better. You're dealing with the mentality of a guy who's walking around going "look at me, I'm bad", and you're going, "I'm looking at you. You're bad."

 

[MatiasTolkki]

Well, i DID poke the bear by saying I wanted to knock some sense into Jeff over his bad decisions of late but still, anyone with 2 brain cells would know that I didnt mean that literally and that phrase is commonplace.

I have been griping about Jeff for 2 years now, basically since the split, because he spent so much time bashing Ibanez and "Asian" guitar makers, lumping the great MIJ stuff of ESP, Tokai, Ibanez, Sugi, etc with cheap Chinese stuff. I have been VERY vocal about that, and it was the thing that turned me against Jeff in the beginning. Then those horrible damn lithium pickups, jesus. Ibanez V7/V8s sound better than those things.

Yes, we all love CARVIN guitars, not Jeff Kiesel. We complain because we want CARVIN guitars. I guess even with that stupid Kiesel logo, my V220 is MARK'S design so I can still use it without feeling bad?