The attempt to destroy the nation state

Discussion in 'Politics & Current Events' started by simonpimonpoo, Nov 20, 2018.

Nationalism, good/bad?

  1. Good

    15 vote(s)
    35.7%
  2. Bad

    27 vote(s)
    64.3%
  1. TedEH

    TedEH Cromulent

    Messages:
    6,807
    Likes Received:
    2,916
    Joined:
    Jun 8, 2007
    Location:
    Gatineau, Quebec
    I know I'm not "American", so maybe I'm missing something, but I'm pretty sure this is wrong. Sarcasm? Something that historically was true but isn't anymore? Was there a joke or something being made that went over my head?
     
  2. DudeManBrother

    DudeManBrother Hey...how did everybody get in my room?

    Messages:
    1,697
    Likes Received:
    1,372
    Joined:
    May 3, 2014
    Location:
    Seattle
    It does look like they’ve changed the words, but it’s still basically achieving the same thing. In the Declaration section just above the Applicant Signature one declares a status of either citizen or non-citizen national of the United States in conjunction with checking “NO” in the U.S. citizen boxes, and accompanied by your Birth Certificate to prove state Citizenship (or non-citizen national status).
     
  3. MaxOfMetal

    MaxOfMetal Likes trem wankery. Super Moderator

    Messages:
    32,098
    Likes Received:
    13,151
    Joined:
    Aug 7, 2008
    Location:
    Racine, WI
    It doesn't look like it's as easy as checking a box, unless I'm misunderstanding, which is a definite possibility.

    https://travel.state.gov/content/tr...hip/Certificates-Non-Citizen-Nationality.html

    It looks like there is a narrow criteria to receive non-citizen national status.
     
    DudeManBrother likes this.
  4. DudeManBrother

    DudeManBrother Hey...how did everybody get in my room?

    Messages:
    1,697
    Likes Received:
    1,372
    Joined:
    May 3, 2014
    Location:
    Seattle
    A state is a territory with its own institutions and populations.
    A sovereign state is a state with its own institutions and populations which has a permanent population, territory, and government. It must also have the right and capacity to make treaties and other agreements with other states.
    A nation is a large group of people that inhabit a specific territory and are connected by history, culture or another commonality.
    A nation-state is a cultural group (a nation) that is also a state (and may, in addition, be a sovereign state).
    The word country can be used to mean the same thing as state, sovereign state, or nation-state. It can also be used in a less political manner to refer to a region or cultural area that has no governmental status. Examples include Wine Country (the grape-growing area of northern California) and Coal Country (the coal-mining region of Pennslyvania).
    coun·try (kŭn′trē)
    n. pl. coun·tries
    1.
    a. A nation or state.
    b. The territory of a nation or state; land.
    c. The people of a nation or state; populace: The whole country will profit from the new economic reforms.
    2. The land of a person's birth or citizenship: Foreign travel is restricted in his country.
    3. A region, territory, or large tract of land distinguishable by features of topography, biology, or culture: hill country; Bible country.
     
  5. DudeManBrother

    DudeManBrother Hey...how did everybody get in my room?

    Messages:
    1,697
    Likes Received:
    1,372
    Joined:
    May 3, 2014
    Location:
    Seattle
    That is the truth. It seems to be more difficult to achieve the distinction every year. The definitions and terms seem to change somewhat frequently. This is a few paragraphs from that link. I believe it was John Kerry as Sec. of State that made this determination:

    As the Department has received few requests, there is no justification for the creation of a non-citizen national certificate. Designing a separate document that includes anti-fraud mechanisms was seen as an inefficient expenditure of resources. Therefore, the Department determined that those who would be eligible to apply for such a certificate may instead apply for a United States passport that would delineate and certify their status as a national but not a citizen of the United States.

    If a person believes he or she is eligible under the law as a non-citizen national of the United States and the person complies with the provisions of section 341(b) of the INA, 8 USC 1452(b),he/she may apply for a passport at any Passport Agency in the United States.. When applying, applicants must execute a Form DS-11 and show documentary proof of their non-citizen national status as well as their identity.
     
  6. TedEH

    TedEH Cromulent

    Messages:
    6,807
    Likes Received:
    2,916
    Joined:
    Jun 8, 2007
    Location:
    Gatineau, Quebec
    I mean, you can use any word to mean anything if you really want to. By your definitions, I could stretch any city to be called it's own country. Picking definitions to fit what you want them to mean doesn't help any conversation though. If I go by the wikipedia definition, or how people usually/colloquially use the term, then the only one of those that actually applies is the country = sovereign state definition, which I'm pretty sure is how most people understand the word "country" until you explicitly define it for them.
    U.S.A. is a country.
    Each state within it is not (by any definition that is meaningful to me).
    Much like Quebec is not it's own country, as much as it wants to be. :lol:

    At the end of the day, I think people put too much stock into where they come from, and where other people come from, and what other people have or don't have, or think or don't think, etc. This level of political conversation admittedly goes way over my head, but I just can't see the value in a lot of it. Way too much of it boils down to "you're not like me, so stay out of my space". The bigger the words and the more complicated the systems at play, the more harmful-isms you can hide in it- race-ism, class-ism, whatever else -ism. And this is coming from a guy who hates when isms get thrown around.

    I can't think of any other reason to want to have more hard-defined lines between people than to keep everyone else out. Call your state a country so that you have more basis to say that others aren't from the same place.
     
    thraxil likes this.
  7. Drew

    Drew Forum MVP

    Messages:
    28,585
    Likes Received:
    4,033
    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2004
    Location:
    Somerville, MA
    Still doesn't hold water. For one, if you were born in a US state or territory, then you're automatically granted US citizenship. The non-citizen national application process is explained in Section 341(b) and requires first proving that you are NOT a US citizen, but ARE a US National. At present, that basically means proving you were born in American Samoa or the Swain Islands, per MaxofMetal's link.

    And, of course, even if you WERE born in the American Samoa or Swain Islands, you would still be getting a US passport, not an American Samoa passport.

    We're splitting hairs over a tossed-off comment, sure... But, no, there is absolutely no way you can get a State of Washington passport, or as a US citizen get a passport saying you are NOT a US citizen but still a US national.
     
  8. DudeManBrother

    DudeManBrother Hey...how did everybody get in my room?

    Messages:
    1,697
    Likes Received:
    1,372
    Joined:
    May 3, 2014
    Location:
    Seattle
    You are correct. American Samoa and Swain Islands citizens fall under the definition outlined in 8 USC 1101 a22. You are also correct in that there is no State of Washington passport. That still falls under citizen of the United States. Anybody that said they aren’t a citizen of the United States, but are a national of the United States would be confused as it’s the same thing. We’re talking about different scenarios entirely; which is cool, but I don’t feel like dragging this on any further. The grammatical distinctions and implications thereof have seemingly been lost on everyone trying to follow along.
     
  9. Drew

    Drew Forum MVP

    Messages:
    28,585
    Likes Received:
    4,033
    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2004
    Location:
    Somerville, MA
    ...but, to come full circle back to my original point, it's just one more reason it's hard to argue that the US is somehow not a nation.

    Which is a sentence I never ever expected to have to write. :lol:
     
    DudeManBrother likes this.
  10. DudeManBrother

    DudeManBrother Hey...how did everybody get in my room?

    Messages:
    1,697
    Likes Received:
    1,372
    Joined:
    May 3, 2014
    Location:
    Seattle
    You’ll have to take that up with the Supreme Court!
     
  11. Drew

    Drew Forum MVP

    Messages:
    28,585
    Likes Received:
    4,033
    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2004
    Location:
    Somerville, MA
    No, I won't. :lol:

    https://www.supremecourt.gov/about/about.aspx

    "EQUAL JUSTICE UNDER LAW" - These words, written above the main entrance to the Supreme Court Building, express the ultimate responsibility of the Supreme Court of the United States. The Court is the highest tribunal in the Nation for all cases and controversies arising under the Constitution or the laws of the United States. As the final arbiter of the law, the Court is charged with ensuring the American people the promise of equal justice under law and, thereby, also functions as guardian and interpreter of the Constitution."
     
  12. wat

    wat SS.org Regular

    Messages:
    1,099
    Likes Received:
    149
    Joined:
    Mar 21, 2013
    Location:
    Tampa Bay Area, FL
    Apples to Orangutans. Why would the United Nations try to coerce nations into agreeing to make it illegal to criticize mass immigration policies?

    Why do you think the US, Poland, Australia, would want to back put of the agreement?

    This is not unlike calling someone racist for being concerned about illegal immigration from Mexico, because most of the illegal immigrants are...a race. :lol:
    So you believe nations should NOT have the right to chose who and how many they allow to immigrate?
     
  13. Randy

    Randy Sous Chef Super Moderator

    Messages:
    20,925
    Likes Received:
    4,819
    Joined:
    Apr 23, 2006
    Location:
    The Electric City, NY
    Treading lightly because I know you have a tendency to just come in to deposit something inflammatory and leave but you seem like an intelligent enough guy and it's a discussion worth having.

    The functional issue here is that if the majority of people who mass migrate into your country are from a common region and, not so coicidentally, of a common race and you oppose their migration, how does one from the outside determine if that opposition is based on race or based on other mitigating factors?
     
  14. Drew

    Drew Forum MVP

    Messages:
    28,585
    Likes Received:
    4,033
    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2004
    Location:
    Somerville, MA
    Ignoring for the fact that you DO see the white nationalist right swear up and down that they don't hate brown people, per se, they just want to "preserve our (implicit: white) American culture and history"...

    ...I think you also have to reconcile that with the fact that you don't see the same level of concern for immigrants coming from Sweden and Norway, the two non-"shithole countries" that Trump mentioned wanting to see more immigrants from, rather than Mexico or Guatemala or the Dominican Republic. So, yes, it starts to become racist when you start to selectively single out countries and the one weird connection pulling them all together is the color of their skin.

    OP seems to have vanished. Weirdest thing.
     
  15. Explorer

    Explorer He seldomly knows...

    Messages:
    6,622
    Likes Received:
    1,143
    Joined:
    May 23, 2009
    Location:
    Formerly from Cucaramacatacatirimilcote...
    It's worth remembering that Trump has an actual business which lets pregnant women from Russia stay at Mar a Lago so they can give birth there and thus have an anchor baby which is a US citizen.
     
  16. narad

    narad SS.org Regular

    Messages:
    7,760
    Likes Received:
    6,577
    Joined:
    Feb 15, 2009
    Location:
    Tokyo
    I want that to be true but that sounds fake?
     
  17. MaxOfMetal

    MaxOfMetal Likes trem wankery. Super Moderator

    Messages:
    32,098
    Likes Received:
    13,151
    Joined:
    Aug 7, 2008
    Location:
    Racine, WI
    It's somewhat exaggerated, but not completely off base.

    https://www.thedailybeast.com/russians-flock-to-trump-properties-to-give-birth-to-us-citizens

    https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/birth-tourism-brings-russian-baby-boom-miami-n836121

    So there's supposedly an uptick in "birth tourism" and they just so happen to come to traditionally Russian enclaves which Trump owns some property in.

    I wouldn't go as far as saying it's a direct business.
     
  18. narad

    narad SS.org Regular

    Messages:
    7,760
    Likes Received:
    6,577
    Joined:
    Feb 15, 2009
    Location:
    Tokyo
    Yea, I mean - I'm not seeing the Mar a Lago connection, which would be like the smoking gun for that narrative imo.
     
  19. MaxOfMetal

    MaxOfMetal Likes trem wankery. Super Moderator

    Messages:
    32,098
    Likes Received:
    13,151
    Joined:
    Aug 7, 2008
    Location:
    Racine, WI
    Yeah, there's a lot of sketchy articles stretching things to try and fit what Explorer said. Some kind of "fake news" if you would.

    I think latching onto this kind of stuff just helps reinforce the "fake news" narrative.
     
  20. wat

    wat SS.org Regular

    Messages:
    1,099
    Likes Received:
    149
    Joined:
    Mar 21, 2013
    Location:
    Tampa Bay Area, FL
    Well, you can't determine that without mind-reading. But I don't think the next best thing is to just assume racism... barring any "mitigating circumstances" :lol:

    I constantly see terms like "racist dogwhistle" and "alt-lite" being used by bloggers, journos, vloggers, etc, in order to lump people in with the alt-right/racists in leiu of actually engaging their arguments. Comes across as very "racist until proven otherwise" to me.

    I get it. Being concerned about illegal immigration technically means the person has something idealogically in common with literally 100% of KKK members. I know. :lol:



    But brown skin isn't the only thing tying those countries together.

    In an alternate universe where the only thing that changed was that Sweden and Mexico swapped geographical locations, education programs and murder rates, there would be more talk about Swedish immigration. And we'd be regionalists instead of racists I guess.
     

Share This Page

  1. This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register.
    By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our use of cookies.