student loan forgiveness

Discussion in 'Politics & Current Events' started by sleewell, Nov 18, 2020 at 10:41 AM.

  1. fantom

    fantom Misses his 6 strings

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    You have to choose to go to a for profit or private school over a public one. See my prior post (below). The data doesn't really back what you are saying. The average undergraduate public state university, 30% have no debt, 25% have less than $20k debt. Another 33% have $20k-40k. And 12% are over $40k. For majority of people with student debt from a public school, the amount should be manageable if you have a salary job with a bachelor's degree. That upper 12% should have some options that are case by case. But wholesale removing debts seems silly given that information. I just hope you aren't trying to generalize your personal situation.

    Ya you are right that people who can't pay off their debts are excellent for the economy, because they by definition spend money they don't have.

    And yes, I have no sympathy for people who chose for profit, private, or graduate school. I personally didn't have that option because I couldn't afford a "better" school than the one near where I grew up. I chose to go to the one that made financial sense despite offers from prestigious (and out of state) schools. I'd also argue that the in state public school was more than sufficient.



     
    Last edited: Nov 21, 2020 at 5:09 PM
  2. narad

    narad Progressive metal and politics

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    If you went to a state public school that was "more than sufficient", then you must live in a state with one of the better ones. That's far from the case everywhere.
     
  3. fantom

    fantom Misses his 6 strings

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    Rough count, there are about 23 states with higher ranked public schools than the one I went to. It was around the 80-125 range on most sites. I can buy that some states are worse, but I don't buy that I was in a more privileged state with better than average options.
     
  4. Jonathan20022

    Jonathan20022 Engineer

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    Good one.

    It's incredibly annoying to have a discussion when people pull these gotchas and respond to a single point and completely miss the mark to top it off. I said helping people with a $200 minimum payment on a low interest rate student loan, when they are already under with other forms of debt does nothing for that individual. How you took that as, "You don't think 200 is a lot to someone who makes 35k" is beyond me but it wouldn't be the first time you took a large post concerning a nuanced topic and isolated it like this. :shrug:

    Econ 101, do you understand how interest rates work? Do you not realize that Student Loans are one of the least detrimental form of loans you can take out for yourself? No this doesn't mean I'm against forgiving student loans, hard to believe I have to spell that out anymore clearly than I have. But the goal is to help people, not virtue signal and feign ignorance.
     
    Last edited: Nov 22, 2020 at 2:21 AM
  5. Lemonbaby

    Lemonbaby SS.org Regular

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    Very interesting to read Americans discussing this. Very unique approach
    I see. So more or less a confirmation of the prejudices everyone outside of the US has. What's a "Murica"?
     
  6. KnightBrolaire

    KnightBrolaire thy fart is murder

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    he was being facetious and making fun of how some ignorant hillbillies in this country act...
    Murica is a shortened slang version of America, and started as a way to make fun of overly patriotic nationalistic mouthbreathers that barely graduated high school. Sadly the mouthbreathers don't understand satire or irony so they've co-opted it as a legit rallying cry.
     
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  7. diagrammatiks

    diagrammatiks SS.org Regular

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    Ya it's just a funny name for America.

    The problem really is that America is super individualistic. Live free or die. So any time you have a collective action problem it becomes a big mess. Individualism by itself isn't bad...but sometimes it makes solving things hard.

    The other problem is that, and you can see it even in this thread...even most center leaning people can agree that there's a lot of structural issues that need to be resolved...but no one will agree that you should put a band-aid on the wound while you figure shit out.
     
  8. Jonathan20022

    Jonathan20022 Engineer

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  9. MaxOfMetal

    MaxOfMetal Likes trem wankery. Super Moderator

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    What a horseshit article. Throwing these bad faith arguments around isn't helping folks think you're not just bitter about all this.

    Framing this as working class vs. elites is asinine, because while the most who will benefit could be argued to be in the least financial peril (again, argued, but definitely not confirmed), those who will be greatest impacted individually are working class, those whose debt is larger relative to income short/mid term.

    Pro Tip: if an article refers to folks as "the elite" without irony it probably has an axe to grind, which Jonah Goldberg always has if means spreading his brand of conservative libertarianism by throwing up strawmen and arguing in bad faith.
     
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  10. Mathemagician

    Mathemagician SS.org Regular

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    So far the viewpoint that it is somehow “elitist” to offer aid for public debt appears to have only focused on trying to “win” a competition with a niche narrative with zero support stemming from a misplaced sense of fairness.

    From the data I’ve seen this isn’t about trying to “prove” a side. Educated countries have higher standards of living. My goal is education people genuinely “on the fence” on the issue. Not trying to “win” on the internet.

    The facts already exist and 45 million Americans would experience some form of relief. And the remainder would benefit from their increased spending.

    Always curious why corporate “bailouts” NEVER come under the same scrutiny.

    In March 2020 we bailed out industries like cruise lines which don’t pay US taxes, and airlines which wasted every damn dollar they earned by buying back their own stock, and many other industries. For those unaware, a company’s STOCK value is equal to= the total value of the firm divided by the number of shares available. Buying back shares reduces the # available, so the company is worth the same but the denominator is smaller thereby increasing stock’s price. Most executives have a hefty portion of their compensation in stock grants. So by wasting the companies money buying back stock instead of reinvesting it they are artificially paying themselves more.

    All of this was branded as an effort “to prevent job loss”.

    The companies all laid people off anyways after the fact all year.

    Then we have bailouts in the form of “Job Creating Tax Cuts”:

    After the 2017 tax cuts, which AT&T promised would lead to higher wages for employees they pocketed the $42 BILLION (with a B) in savings INSTEAD:

    1) Laid off some 28,000 workers
    2) Dragged their feet for years on negotiations with employees to actually raise wages
    3) Kicked and screamed because they could not just steal the money out the back end by forcing employees to pay more for health benefits (thereby allowing the company to pay less to the providers).

    Heres just one article, they get to the juicy bits in the first paragraphs.

    https://www.cbsnews.com/news/at-t-got-a-giant-tax-cut-but-has-laid-off-thousands-union-says/
     
    Last edited: Nov 22, 2020 at 2:15 PM
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  11. Jonathan20022

    Jonathan20022 Engineer

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    Meh, you didn't like it when I showed you data that supports middle class/upper class Americans owning a majority of student debt, and you brushed it aside because it doesn't matter to you.

    It's 2020, we can means test and help only parties that qualify and need the assistance. And we can choose to actually help the percentage of the lower/working/middle actively holding student loans instead of family of 5 in the suburbs who can afford to pay their loans back.

    What's your opposition to the above sentiment? Do you actually care about helping those impaired by their student loans, or do you want to give wealthy families back some of their monthly luxury spending money to pad it even further?

    Yeah AT&T is trash, what else is new? (Huge discussion pivot, btw)

    So bailouts are bad because some businesses take advantage of them? Or should we follow up and revoke/fine businesses who pull of stunts like that?
     
  12. Mathemagician

    Mathemagician SS.org Regular

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    Bro. You have now dug in your heels at arguing in desperate attempt to reconcile your misunderstanding of the entire point of student loans relief-

    The entire point is INTENDED to be middle class relief. And likely upper middle class.

    Both of which have been dwindling in the United States for over two decades.

    Everyone went to college to get “good jobs” because there were no more good factory jobs. Because there were no good places to “work your way up” without a degree to unlock the gatekeepers.

    You have essentially argued that middle class relief should not benefit the middle class.

    I quoted that terrible article back to you. Which you are clearly willfully ignoring.

    $74k per year is just barely middle class. And those people carry the bulk of student loan debts. Meaning that the middle class/upper middle class earners pay proportionally more dollars each month to the US government.

    The relief is to allow that money to be out to use on the economy, instead of disappearing into a black hole.

    You discuss “means testing” the same way an asshole discusses “drug testing for food stamps”. People have kids and the kids gotta eat regardless of if mommy is a junkie.

    Just because someone has a decent job doesn’t mean they still don’t deserve debt relief.

    You are looking at the world as though that person will suddenly “get ahead of you” by having their debt forgiven.

    You are not COMPETING with the person making $100k per year. You are competing with the US Government for their MONEY. Which is otherwise tied up doing nothing for anyone.

    Admit that once again the only negative point you can think of is that you are in absolute simplest terms jealous of middle class debt relief actually benefitting middle class people.

    You frame it as though you want to “help the poor”. But it boils down to you fundamentally wanting to “put others in their place” in an attempt to protect what you see as an encroachment on your own success.

    Buddy, it’s freeing up anywhere from $1.2k to $12k/yr ($100/mo vs. $1k/mo) for middle & upper middle class earners most of whose have kids and a mortgage. You really think they’re going to buy a helicopter before you? No they’re going to repair their home and buy diapers.

    1/6 of the country has their earnings artificially deflated by overinflated tuition expenses and thus loans, and you want to fucking “means test” instead of racking in the windfall of increased economic activity.

    You have a 401k right? When they spend that money companies earn more and stocks go up. Money printer go brrrrr.

    But I can negotiate. If someone is willing to free up all student loan debts for anyone making sub $75k point blank I’m for it. Because when those results come in it’s going to be a mad dash to free up the capital from the middle class earners to be able generate tax revenue.
     
    Last edited: Nov 22, 2020 at 4:59 PM
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  13. Jonathan20022

    Jonathan20022 Engineer

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    The obsession with painting others as jealous spiteful people is getting old. I have some of my student loans left, and it would benefit me to have that debt wiped :lol: I just don't think if you are in a position to pay back your commitments, that you should have those commitments cleared.

    You are also constantly flipping your focus. A few pages back it was the poor midwestern kid who can't go to school without crippling debt, then it was making sure the people who aren't better off get relief (even if the opposite group gets it as well).

    And now it's about how diapers and home repairs, how many poor people own a fucking house dude? :lol:

    We have other problems to cater to, like healthcare. And at the rate of progress this country travels at I'd like to focus on the people who actually need a hand :shrug:
     
  14. Mathemagician

    Mathemagician SS.org Regular

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    I flipped the focus on purpose. That’s not a “gotcha” that you made.

    All types of people across the US, ~46 million of them would benefit from student loan relief.

    That’s why my example keeps changing. I’m not fishing for one specific person. It would help across a broad swath of the population. Something most policy changes do not do.

    I keep painting your argument as jealousy because that’s essentially what it boils down to. An entire generation took out loans, and only a fraction have been able to realistically pay it back.

    I conceded the “below $75k” to you and you ignored it because you keep citing that quote of yours but you speak out of both sides of your mouth.

    “I don’t care if others loans are forgiven” then immediately follow it up with a laundry list of reasons not to forgive anyone’s loans.

    You say you’re looking out for the poor, you say your “just supporting fairness” you say that hardworking middle and upper classes should not be eligible, someone else suggested repossessing degrees, which is it? Do you support forgiving loans so Americans can move on and out that money to use, or do you want to revel in knowing that others are being drained financially “but at least they didn’t get one up on you”.

    It’s self-serving to deny 46 million Americans debt relief when two generations ago a degree could be afforded with just summer job and zero financial aid which truly made it a “choice” versus entering the workforce to support a family.

    I genuinely feel bad that there’s no job outside of working at a restaurant where someone with zero education can realistically break $50k.

    And your point about healthcare? You saw what the Republican senate and Congress did to the first version of the Affordable Care Act, based on Romney’s original healthcare act.

    America needs to fucking flex and start working on multiple problems at once. Because this “wait your turn” bullshit is hurting peoples lives.
     
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  15. fantom

    fantom Misses his 6 strings

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    Except that private and for profit schools were not required to get a job. Here is the argument I see...

    Suppose someone is told their parents are in the hospital and won't make it 2 weeks, and that they need to travel home. People that cannot afford plane tickets can choose to 1) not travel, 2) travel by train to save money but possibly take longer, 3) travel by air with a multistop itenerary and layovers using cheapest option on a credit card, 4) travel first class direct flight while staying at a Ritz Carlton, running up their credit cards while bragging about sleeping with nurses and getting drunk. When the bill comes due, and someone in category 4 says they had no choice and didn't need to think of finances, are you going to refund their credit card?

    FWIW I lived on less than $20k for *years* while going to college and had no trouble saving $200 / month to buy gear... Ya it would have been impossible with a family. People like my brother didn't go to college for exactly that reason. Why should people that chose to go in debt be treated any better than a blue collar worker that didn't feel they had that option?

    I don't think people are arguing that a middle class relief should not go to middle class. I think they are arguing that the middle class shouldn't get a relief. If there is a contradiction, it's because the idea doesn't make sense. You are probably better off than you realize.
     
    Last edited: Nov 22, 2020 at 5:53 PM
  16. Jonathan20022

    Jonathan20022 Engineer

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    Yes America does need to change, drastically and sooner than later.

    You also didn't "concede" anything, you shallowly agreed with me as a footnote then continued to support why you should in fact help people who can reasonably afford their financial commitments with loan forgiveness.

    I've also never used the word "fair", to address my points. I expect those who can reasonably meet their agreed on commitments, to do so. :shrug: If your overall goal is to stimulate the economy and put money back into people's pockets, any relief accomplishes that. You need a baseline before you can consider funneling any extra income into the economy, so I will genuinely concede that overall loan relief across the board WOULD stimulate the economy. Middle Class/Upper Class now gets some more spending money and businesses begin to recover somewhat from a slaughtered economy while barely anything changes for the Lower/Working class.
     
  17. narad

    narad Progressive metal and politics

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    Is anyone arguing for a unilateral loan forgiveness?

    It seems that's problematic, as high earners with advanced degrees often have high student loan debt. These are the people that sway the aggregate student loan stats to show it being a middle/upper class issue. My student loan debt was over $130k at one point, but that's what happens when you live in grad school for forever.

    I think when you look at macro stats, the way @Jonathan20022 is doing, it's easy to think of student loan debt as an upper class problem. Upper class people have it, but it's a lower class problem. Apart from those people who can actually pay the loans back without too much hassle, there are people for whom a large amount of their annual take-home would be eaten up purely in the interest of their loans. And that is very much a lower class issue, that also contributes to a stagnating economy. Of course, I feel that I'm stating the obvious, that that's basically student loan forgiveness 101, but that's how far this conversation has drifted!

    It's easy to identify these people who are really suffering by that loan-to-income ratio, and forgive their loans past some point of payment, or at least absolve them of paying interest they can't keep up with. I think in a lot of these cases borrowers would be able to pay their loans over a 10-20 year time frame without crippling their day-to-day and future financial aspirations, if only we extended protections on interest rates / forgave interest. Hell, I think I only took out like $60k in student loans, and look at what that turned into (FWIW, anyone in this situation should always go out of their way to pay $2.5k in interest every year for the tax write-off).

    And of course this is typically the strategy taken by the UK. It's not anything new.
     
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  18. fantom

    fantom Misses his 6 strings

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    If you think people in debt due college education is a lower class problem, you really don't understand the lower class. The lower class are people dropping out of high school and not even applying to colleges that have to work 2-3 part time jobs with no benefits all while raising kids, maybe with help from a partner. According to Pew, lower class is household income less than $26k for single tax filers and $36k for married filers. If we look at just single tax filers, 12% of college loan debt households, at most, come from the lower class.

    https://www.urban.org/urban-wire/which-households-hold-most-student-debt

    To reiterate, we are arguing about giving a stimulus to some small percentage of people likely under 25 years old (88% of people student debt make more than $25k per year) when 33% of the entire population makes less than that and has fewer opportunities. How do you think the is helping people again?

    If we were talking taxes and corporations, this would be trickle down economics. What makes student loan economy arguments any different than corporate tax cut economy arguments?
     
    Last edited: Nov 22, 2020 at 10:35 PM
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  19. MaxOfMetal

    MaxOfMetal Likes trem wankery. Super Moderator

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    When the only cogent counter arguments are "well, there are other people we can help" and "it only helps some people", maybe your arguments aren't really all that great.

    I don't think anyone is positioning student load debt relief as the only problem worth solving, as we are fully capable of solving multiple problems at once, we (collectively) just don't want or care too.

    That's one of the bullshit strawmen in that NYP article. That, well, folks with student debt aren't that bad off, and we can help so many more people with that money. Cool, how about both? The idea we can only do one thing at a time so we don't do anything is fucking stupid and it's transparent as fuck.
     
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  20. narad

    narad Progressive metal and politics

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    I don't understand the lower class? Your depiction of the lower class sounds like some sort of except from a "scared straight" program.

    I feel like this is why people need some sort of license to use statistics. Where do young college-educated people tend to live: San Francisco, or Detroit? And now you've classified a huge number of people who are low-income earners in their area as being in the middle or even upper class in terms of national statistics. You've also mixed the people qualifying as lower income during high school with those qualifying as such after college, where they would have student debt. You'd have to be doing a much more fine-grained analysis of demographics to prove the point you're trying to make here.

    And I guess it bears repeating even though I mentioned it right off in that post you're quoting, that I don't know who here is pushing for unilateral debt relief. I'm pushing for an implementation of the UK-style system, where if people are earning enough to comfortably pay back the loans, they pay back the loans. If after 10-20 years of regular payments, that's enough. If you can't get a decent job straight out of school, your loans don't continue to balloon in the background, casting a cloud of anxiety over the youth of the country.

    So no, I don't find it like trickle-down economics. I find it like universal healthcare, or prisons that seek to rehabilitate inmates. Things that aim to reduce the amount of human suffering in the country even if it doesn't perfectly suit the up-by-your-bootstraps Ayn Rand-ian capitalist values of like... the main guy from Wolf of Wall Street.

    nypost gonna nypost
     
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