student loan forgiveness

Discussion in 'Politics & Current Events' started by sleewell, Nov 18, 2020.

  1. MaxOfMetal

    MaxOfMetal Likes trem wankery. Super Moderator

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    What are you talking about?

    Read @Mathemagician's post above. Comparing public debt and private debt is asinine.

    Chances are, in 2020, that those parents can't send thier kids to school because they themselves are up to thier armpits in non-dischargeable student debt, and the only reason that their kids aren't going to school is because they themselves are terrified of that debt.
     
  2. ramses

    ramses Guitar/pizza regular

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    This is something I worry about. It is also one of the reasons I haven't made my mind on this issue.

    Why forgive loans to a privileged 1/3rd of the population (privileged in comparison), when the remaining 2/3rds that did not go to college are not generally doing better in life and have worst problems preventing them from making progress in life.
     
    Last edited: Nov 20, 2020
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  3. Mathemagician

    Mathemagician SS.org Regular

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    Welcome to a “progressive” platform:

    Tie minimum wage to inflation and bump it to the $15-20/hr it should be in 2020.

    $20/hr is $40k per year and that’s literally the minimum anyone should be making.

    Create single payer healthcare for citizens that covers everything. Tax income at whatever 5-8% it need to be to work, and from the employer side take the $8-14k it costs a company per person annually for healthcare and throw that into the pot as well. Employers do not have to pay more “in taxes” and small employers are no longer at a competitive disadvantage versus a larger firm that can offer “better benefits”. Also no more premiums, no more copays, no more caps on payouts because your disease is unfortunately “expensive” to treat. No more justifying costs to fucking “insurance” companies for health. Everyone gets sick. This pandemic proved that anything could do it again.

    Invest in education from k-12 with more funding for teachers comp, after school activities, resources for technology. Remove the voucher, choice and other programs that take tax revenue out of public schools and into private/semi-private hands. All kids rise up together and benefit from taxes, not just the ones who want a religious/private/charter school experience.

    Forgive the asinine debt bubble that has crippled a generation of economic growth. Every fucking article you’ve read about millenials being “lazy” or broke or whatever. I made $38k/yr when I was 18 due to sales bonuses from my job.

    There are employers still “starting” college graduate at less than that because they can. You release a 32-38 year old making sub-$70k/yr from college debt and you’ll see every dollar pumped into your communities businesses because they will spend it all.

    So even if YOU don’t have debt, that struggling mom & pop shop which employs 6 other people who need work AND TIPS make money.

    The US is a service economy. Eating out increases and that single mom working as a server makes more the very next busy weekend slinging BEERS AND WINGS.

    Implement a tax on corporate profits and funnel that straight into education and infrastructure improvements. Make college “free” by covering it with taxes and then improve public transit options to connect major cities with the suburbs/regional hubs like a wheel and spoke. Make it so one can live where they want and just be a reasonable drive/uber/bike ride/walk to a station that can commute them to their job/downtown.

    Capital investment in future growth. In business terms we call it “you gotta spend money to make money”.

    America should easily be #1 at ALL of this and be drowning in wings and beer and freedom.

    But people keep whining back to “but how do I get a paycheck out of this today?”

    Best time to plant a tree was 40 years ago. Second best time is today. Wings. Beer. Freedom.
     
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  4. Xaios

    Xaios Foolish Mortal Contributor

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    Good God. The obsession with "fairness" (air quotes, because the concept as it's being presented here by its proponents is incredibly naive) is exactly in line with the same obsession about pulling up by boot-straps, no social welfare, dog-eat-dog social darwinism bullshit point of view that people who have lots of money want people who don't to keep thinking. It works because it appeals to the American ideal of rugged individualism and a primal urge many people seem to have to both punish those they perceive as lazy and feed the delusion that all that we have we've earned by the sweat of our own brow and nothing else.

    Here's the thing: those attitudes might have served people for thousands of years, but they just don't hold water anymore, because we've found a better way. Hell, there will come a time when automation is so widespread that there will simply be more people than jobs. What then will you say to people who don't work? They're still just lazy? Attributing nobility to suffering and one's own ability to earn a living in a society that, at a macro level, doesn't really assign wealth based on individual merit but rather what sociological boxes a person checks off is a fool's game.

    Also, do you really believe that the people who are currently sucking society's wealth upwards towards the top are doing so purely on merit? Of course not. Yes, these people are likely whip smart and probably hard workers, but they are also far more often than a) unbelievably lucky at the outset, and/or b) willing to engage in the type of criminal behavior that those of us at or near the bottom won't conceive of because they know that the wealth they can accrue from doing so makes them almost untouchable. These are the kinds of people that are perfectly happy to sit and watch as you go at each other's throats over fairness and personal accountability, because chances are they got where they are by sidestepping both.

    Do yourself a favor and take the the feeling of moral superiority you get from arguing about individual fairness and accountability, and throw it away. There is simply more to be gained for everyone by recognizing how inherently unfair the system is, and working to change that. And yes, you know what? Some people will exploit that. Society will always have parasites who thrive off the effort of others. But guess what: you and everyone else will still be better off, so in the end, who the fuck cares?
     
    Last edited: Nov 21, 2020
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  5. fantom

    fantom Misses his 6 strings

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    It is worse than optimizing for 1/3 of people. 30% of undergrads have no debt when they graduate. 25% have debt no more than $20k. 41% are defaulting to for-profit private schools. 88% of students have debt less than $40k in public schools. For-profit, it's half. The problem to me seems people choose to go to expensive schools. We are arguing about maybe 5-10% of younger people getting government assistance.

    Just first result. https://www.brookings.edu/policy202...nt-debt-and-whod-benefit-if-it-were-forgiven/

    Agree. I would also be fine with having different, higher, minimum wage for people with different degree types (if the person discloses their degree when they apply for the job). Increasing wages and putting salary caps on the 1% will go much further to fixing the problem. Student loan forgiveness might as well be called a stimulus check for the middle class.
     
    Last edited: Nov 21, 2020
  6. Mathemagician

    Mathemagician SS.org Regular

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    Higher minimum wages kind of already happen via industry. If you have a liberal arts degree and start in investment banking your base salary will be roughly $90k base and $25-50k bonus.

    If you get a back office paperwork job you’d get paid $40kish or whatever. The degree doesn’t matter as much as the industry.

    However wage ranges for jobs should be mandatory disclosed up from to candidates. (I believe California has something similar).

    Student loan forgiveness IS a stimulus for middle class. Yes. Almost. It’s working class stimulus.

    Actual Middle class:

    Can max out 401k annually

    Can afford all medical expenses without a second thought/throwing it on a credit card/personal loan, or postponing it until it gets worse.

    Can afford a down payment on a reasonable house & a mortgage.

    Not living paycheck to paycheck - a flat tire is not a crisis, it’s just an inconvenience and will be fixed by tomorrow

    Can support a hobby without much issue

    One reasonable vacation a year

    That’s the average “middle class life” people could afford on a single salary in the post-war decades from the 50’s-70’s.

    When tax rates approached nearly 90%. See below from the IRS data:

    B7C7C065-1583-43BB-88D7-CD736D995A50.png

    That’s highest marginal tax rates over time. Look at that and line it up with what decades people romanticize with QOL.

    Maybe I’m just super patriotic but I think america should be leading at median quality of life.

    Welcome to the team. You think you don’t want it, but you do. A huge swath of potential middle class people getting relief.
     
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  7. narad

    narad Progressive metal and politics

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    In the 1950s and 60s the economy must have suffered because such a high top marginal tax bracket would not encourage "job creators".
     
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  8. Jonathan20022

    Jonathan20022 Engineer

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    I don't care if it's fair or not, my neighbor's debt is their own problem and them having it forgiven or not has a net zero immediate effect on my personal wellbeing. I'm not salty that people might have their debt wiped, if it happens then they are better for it and I am happy for them. If the debt isn't wiped, then back to square one they are liable to their commitments.

    Do you think those who can afford to pay their loans off and are better off than 90% of the US Population should have their debt forgiven when they are fully capable and set up to pay their loans off? It's SO weird to me that you keep attributing it to jealousy, when I'm from the beginning for debt forgiveness with eligibility requirements laid out.

    I don't think well off family A should be able to send their kids to higher education, fund it solely via tax payer dollars and get it wiped slate free. I'm jealous of them for being able to take advantage of the system in the example outlined, because that is simply cheating the system. Wiping federal education loans gives people of all walks of life an easy way out.

    Those who NEED it will benefit from it, and I can agree that a reasonable number of people need that assistance. I don't think every person with student loans needs to be bailed out.

    I'm honestly not dude, the only time I've taken anything personally is when I get painted as some jealous prick who doesn't want to help others who are actually in need.

    We also don't have to continue with my example. But to clarify, it isn't uncommon to look for places that offer great programs, find out their associated cost then drop the idea once you realize you can't afford it. My mother wanting me to apply anyway to see if I would have even made it doesn't put a wedge in my story. Realizing that the education at Brown wouldn't have necessarily earned me anymore merit or financial gain in the end is a perfectly apt realization to have post-graduation as well.

    Once again, I'm all for a massive reduction in the cost of education and for more reasonable options for those who can't afford it to go where they are capable of, and where they want it to. Like Ramses said, we don't disagree with our core arguments, we see the college experience differently and disagree on how to make it reach a larger less privileged audience.

    Rich people already get bail outs and massive pardons.

    You realize that educational debt in the first place barely effects the average American right?

    https://www.cnbc.com/select/average-american-debt-by-age/
    • Gen Z (ages 18 to 23): $9,593
    • Millennials (ages 24 to 39): $78,396
    • Gen X (ages 40 to 55): $135,841
    • Baby boomers (ages 56 to 74): $96,984
    • Silent generation (ages 75 and above): $40,925
    Student loans: Gen X have the highest amount of student loan debt, an average of $39,981.

    A whopping 29% of Gen X debt is dedicated to Student Loans, with those fantastic interest rates they got back in the day I'd leave those for last too. You pretend that giving people in poverty their $200 minimum payment back a month would make a difference when they're already under from debt elsewhere.

    Wages aren't high enough, rent and commodities are increasingly more expensive, and the country is in an economic crisis. Bumping the average American's OVERALL balance by eliminating a LOW interest rate federal loan, and freeing some of their already low living income does nothing for them. I imagine for someone buried in debt makes people feel some slight mental relief before they realize they're still under when they look at their Credit Karma account.

    It's also super tone deaf to not realize that higher levels of education is inherently a privilege. It's a privilege that I could even apply to a college 200k more expensive than I could afford, and still go to one that ended up costing me 50k. And it's a privilege that allowed me to be in the place I am today, there are countless living problems that don't even allow people to be on the roadmap to a college education in the first place.

    You're advocating to help people in the first place who are at a MASSIVE advantage in life in the first place. Parts of this group, those with educational debt IMO don't deserve to have their commitments wiped right off the plate and I'd argue you do too if you considered which demographics would be included in your umbrella.
     
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  9. MaxOfMetal

    MaxOfMetal Likes trem wankery. Super Moderator

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    Then why be so against it?

    That's the selfish American attitude that folks elsewhere tend not to understand. In most places it's "this doesn't really concern me, so have at it" while here it's "this doesn't really concern me, but fuck them."

    We're the richest nation on the planet. We have plenty of resources to better the lives of just about everyone, but choose not to because we've been brainwashed into hating our neighbor over silly shit like this.

    Again, for the folks in the back, we're the only country this stupid about education. :nuts:
     
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  10. Jonathan20022

    Jonathan20022 Engineer

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    In earnest, where are you getting the implication that I am against it?

    Is it all or nothing with this talking point, or what?

     
    Last edited: Nov 21, 2020
  11. MaxOfMetal

    MaxOfMetal Likes trem wankery. Super Moderator

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    Yeah, pretty much.

    I have no problem with some privileged folks benefiting from a system that allows access to better, cheaper, debt free education if it means that will be available for everyone. The edge cases don't really bother me.
     
  12. Jonathan20022

    Jonathan20022 Engineer

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  13. MaxOfMetal

    MaxOfMetal Likes trem wankery. Super Moderator

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    I don't tend to villify the middle to upper-middle class as equal to some concept of ultra privileged super rich folks. So no, a household making $106k a year getting some form of debt relief doesn't bother me, especially if it's put back into the economy.
     
  14. diagrammatiks

    diagrammatiks SS.org Regular

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    You’re also pretty much slightly above poverty in some places with that income and a nuclear family.
     
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  15. USMarine75

    USMarine75 The man who is tired of the anus is tired of life Contributor

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    But you’re missing my point which is that the whole process shouldn’t be “for profit” except if you’re choosing private schools like Harvard. But why are state schools for profit? Why are federal student loans for profit? The whole point is an educated citizenry is a better citizenry. More income (to pay more taxes), better educated so as not to believe in things like fundamentalism and chemtrails, and more able to positively contribute to the overall zeitgeist. It’s like arguing for universal medical care. A healthy citizenry is better for everyone not just the individual. Which is why I hate libertarian a-holes. Libertarianism is the ultimate Ayn Rand all about me BS. What’s best for me is best for all. F that. (*Not backed by science)


    ^ this is what I’m getting at.


    ^ this a thousand times over. Why is it that people believe in the magical unicorn (and debunked) theory of trickle down economics but yet think educating their citizenry (or ensuring their health as a right) is a fuck you proposition?
     
    Last edited: Nov 21, 2020
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  16. lurè

    lurè Fake Shredder

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    I think in US is more a right-libertarianism. The biggest problem I have with that is that is often linked to meritocracy wich is kinda bullshit.

    If a person, because of his financial status, has not the possibility to have access to education, health and everything required to freely express himself in a society, than it's not a matter of merit.

    Setting up economical barriers to every aspect of people lifes and calling "meritocracy" those who can afford to overcome them is my biggest worry about Libertarianism.
     
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  17. StevenC

    StevenC SS.org Regular

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    I'm not sure I understand the "why should they get something for free that others have paid for" slant when the rest of the developed world gets it for free. The question is "why should we pay for something everyone else gets for free", as with most problems in America.
     
  18. Mathemagician

    Mathemagician SS.org Regular

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    From the article high earners are defined as those earning more than $74k/yr.

    Bro in 2020, $80k per person is the BOTTOM RUNG to enter “middle class”, in second and third tier cities.

    Quote from article:
    “The highest-income 40 percent of households (those with incomes above $74,000) owe almost 60 percent of the outstanding education debt and make almost three-quarters of the payments. The lowest-income 40 percent of households hold just under 20 percent of the outstanding debt and make only 10 percent of the payments. It should be no surprise that higher-income households owe more student debt than others.”

    We’re talking about the same thing. I’m just saying $75k/yr is not impressive, while you’re saying that it IS impressive.

    That’s not typically attainable until one’s 30’s outside of certain industries. Not everyone is going to be a programmer making $150k at 22, and those that are pay $4k+ monthly for rent.

    Doctors can easily make $150k-200k after their residency ends. They’ll also be in their mid 30’s with $300k+ in loans and a decade+ behind their peers in working years and retirement savings.

    $200k isn’t “richy rich”. It’s just upper middle class. That with a family of 4 is just slightly nicer cars and vacations, maybe not even if the other partner is a house spouse.

    I don’t mind doctors getting a break on that shit either. It’s not an easy profession to attain and it should be rewarded.

    Also the highest personal marginal tax rate shouldn’t slap people until like $600k/yr and needs to be updated.

    At the end of the day I don’t care if well off people get a break as long as the the less well off get a break too. All too often it’s only the top getting a break.

    You say you don’t care but you do care. It rustles your jimmies that someone else gets a break.

    We’re not even arguing at this point, and I’m not even sure we disagree, you’re just being purposefully picky about it. You state that you would waste time and energy attaching strings to something that doesn’t need strings attached.

    If we’re discussing making college free going forward, we have to let loose everyone currently tied down too. It’s the MJ jail example again.

    Most people earning sub-$1mm/yr earn W-2 income. Which is taxed at the highest marginal tax rates. I am ok with removing the debt burden of education that allowed them to contribute so much in taxes for everything.

    Middle class ($70-125k) and Upper middle class ($125k-250k) families work hard too, and should not be demonized. It’s literally the American dream held out to the world.

    Think of all the extra beer, wings, and dumb kick knacks they would spend money on. Now open a hipster avocado toast/craft beer food cart and make that $$$bread baby.

    Meanwhile those making $30-50k a year and who will likely never really top that adjusted for inflation get a real opportunity to begin saving for a small house/apartment to finally get on the property ladder and begin “getting ahead” in life.

    Student loan debts are one part of a bigger problem, but the idea that America as a country is too stupid/poor to tackle multiple problems is just nuts to me.

    Edit: I swear it doesn’t feel like a lot when I’m typing. Isn’t this forum about guitars or something?
     
    Last edited: Nov 21, 2020
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  19. Sumsar

    Sumsar SS.org Regular

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    ^ Usually it doesn't look that bad when you type on PC, but then later you scrool through it on your phone and realize you have written up a fairly impressive wall of text, and yes this is a guitar forum so:

    Argument:
    If you remove peoples student debt in the US they will have more money for buying guitars and gear, so that industri will grow, with more and cheaper products (mass manufactoring and mass import) for all of us suckers that spend way to much time complaining about why there is not a production guitar with the right wood / pickup combination and right slant / scale length of the fanned frets (even if most of us have never tried fanned fret). So sheeple, there is a solution for us here that you are not seeing! :lol:
     
  20. budda

    budda Do not criticize as this Contributor

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    @Jonathan20022 if you dont think $200/mo is a lot to anyone making sub $35k/yr, you're exposing your ignorance.
     
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