student loan forgiveness

Discussion in 'Politics & Current Events' started by sleewell, Nov 18, 2020.

  1. budda

    budda Do not criticize as this Contributor

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    What happens if private lenders *do* lose all that debt owed? Whats the pros and cons on a micro and macro level?
     
  2. Randy

    Randy Full on Friendship!™ Super Moderator

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    Right, that's actually kinda what I meant.

    I speak first (or semi-second?) hand on that one, working with a couple different companies through management changes, meeting the people doing the hiring, and meeting the new hires, seeing them fail at the job and subsequently replaced again.

    I fully agree with what you said, as far as describing how applications are cut down. I also think it's probably somewhat impractical to deep dive every application that comes through, especially those with unconventional experience/education.

    You know, stating the obvious but there are a lot of qualified people you miss out on if you filter your applicants using the 'wrong' criteria. Which I know is a subjective term but considering the discussions we're having about changes to the market and disparities in access to the economy (Powell said as much himself), all this should be on the table going forward.

    To the overarching discussion on education and debt, the job market, etc. these are the reasons I am a Democrat and personally why I identify as a progressive. The role of the government is to manage the commons to allow easy access to services necessary for most or all Americans, with also consideration for vulnerable groups. That changes as time goes on, access to healthcare was the big one in the last decade (which we're not up to par on yet but better), and access to quality employment and living wages is the battle now IMO. Whether you address that through the means of employment, access to education or affordability, something needs a significant change to adjust where we were even before COVID. Tenfold now.
     
  3. StevenC

    StevenC SS.org Regular

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    Why though? How is more education a bad thing for anyone?
     
  4. Drew

    Drew Forum MVP

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    Yeah, I guess MaxofMetal would have been maybe the better person to direct that at, since it was more his post I had in mind - you don't have to ascribe an evil desire to HR people wanting a workforce of WASPs who are all too indebted to stand up for themseves, when a far easier explanation is it's just a really simple and legal criteria to weed out a lot of applicants, and save the HR person hundreds of hours of unnecessary work.

    Interesting 538 article on that, on the hiring of Kim Ng as a MBL GM, and that barrier breakers like her often go on to outperform their peers for the simple reason that to be the first to break down a barrier, you have to be pretty damned exceptional in the first place, and a lot of the people who follow in their footsteps are often unusually good as well because they're a previously untapped source. The corollary here I think is pretty clea.
     
  5. Mathemagician

    Mathemagician SS.org Regular

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    This post is the most common complaint we see, and can essentially be summarized as “Jealousy”. And I feel you, because YES that feeling of “missed opportunities” SUCKS. Your feelings are valid. That’s ok.

    I don’t have loans but had to kill myself to keep it that way and had family help. I wouldn’t benefit from loan forgiveness. I still want others to.

    But- “I didn’t have the lotto work out in my favor so why should anyone else get ahead in life/benefit from a policy that doesn’t directly benefit me?”

    Debt forgiveness is PART of the goal, free college is the remainder.

    It’s like legalizing marijuana- we cannot go back in time and give people who were incarcerated for it their lives back, but we CAN release everyone who is still serving time for it and then legalize it for everyone. Yes younger people would not have had to spend years trying to find jobs with a criminal record like older users may have, but that’s not a good reason to keep people trapped in jail.

    Student debt relief should never have been elevated above bankruptcy courts begin with, which arguably kickstarted the ramp up in costs.

    Banks saw “risk less debt” and school saw “anyone can borrow to come here so let’s Jack up prices and accept record #’s of people”.

    The student debt issue is America’s problem whether people have debt or not. You run a flooring business after trade school you finished with no debt? The couple who bought a tiny dumpy house would gladly re-do the flooring and hire you but you know - $600/mo debt payments prevent them from even thinking about it.

    Most businesses in America are small businesses. And those college-educated “libruhls” people love thinking about “buying local” and “supporting small business” but actually can’t so they shop at Wal mart.

    Sell your wings and draft beer to more young Americans - get rid of student loan debt.
     
    Last edited: Nov 19, 2020
  6. Sumsar

    Sumsar SS.org Regular

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    Coming from a country that has tax paid school, high school, university, healt care etc. I pay about 40% income tax as far as I remember. That then covers my own masters degree, which I actually got paid to do. The education was free and I got about 1000$ a month for the 6 years I was studying. I don't have any sort of student loan, other than that I have to pay tax for the rest of my life. I also had cancer when I was about 15 years old, which also got solved for free - was given pretty much the best cure available at the time and did not have to wait long to get it.

    The way I see it, the money invested in me (education and healt) pays off over the years as I work. Business make more because there are more highly educated workers available for hire. People earn more moeny so they spend more. And people pay more taxes, so tax paid per capita gets higher so the bill for it all is carried by the majority of the population.

    A few pages back there was the discussion that many educations does not lead to a job. I think part of that responsibility also lies with businesses. For instance I do IT but have a background in physics. The people in my department has stuied math, chemisty, various forms of engineering and there is also the occasional computer scienctist amoung us. Business must broaden their mind on what background is needed for the job. It is getting better here in Denmark, but I hear that in many other countries you only get hired if you have the precise needed education, which is a waste of potential.
     
  7. Mathemagician

    Mathemagician SS.org Regular

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    The short version from most Americans who make so little that they actually get Tax Rebates back from the government (think sub-$60k/yr with kids) is: Communism.

    Because they engage in mental accounting. They don’t consider the costs of medical care, and child care, and education as a “tax” on their income. If they did, they would see that the amount coming out for baseline needs is the same or more than what those in other countries pay.

    But these paycheck to paycheck people see “40%?!” And then shout “communism”. The end.

    Then they write articles about how Europeans live longer and happier lives because they cook with olive oil.
     
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  8. fantom

    fantom Misses his 6 strings

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    I'm really not trying to be rude, but she did have a choice. She chose to take a loan and go to college. She could have applied for work without a degree instead. She could have went to community college. She could have worked an administration job and gotten a tuition waiver for a few classes each semester. She chose to borrow money.

    If the issue here is that college should retroactively be free, that isn't fair to people that paid back their loans. Are you expecting the government to reimburse them? And why college loans and not mortgages? I would argue mortgages are more important than college loans (shelter is a basic need, education should come after shelter).

    I'm all for reform, but I think saying she had no choice is going a bit far.

    Sounds crappy. This is when you escalate to your manager and the HR person's manager. I've seen similar thing happen, and you'd be surprised how quick getting managers involved can refocus on corrrct values.
     
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  9. nightflameauto

    nightflameauto SS.org Regular

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    It was the head of HR that was involved. The only person to go to witch conflicts with her is the COO below the CEO, and from what I've witnessed people bringing issues with her to him don't tend to fare well.

    I was glad the process got stopped in its tracks, even if the reason was crappy.
     
  10. Vyn

    Vyn Not a Sparkly Vampire

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    Say for arguments sake a degree/qualification costs $100k. That degree earns the recipient $50k+ a year, the degree has paid for itself in less than 10 years and you still have the rest of that person's working life as tax revenue, far greater tax revenue than if they got a position that doesn't require a qualification. Forgiving college loans and making future qualifications free is a no brainer.
     
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  11. Jonathan20022

    Jonathan20022 Engineer

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    I'm for selective loan forgiveness, and I mean real selective based on your field of study. And a percentage of your tuition, I'm sick of the narrative that a young adult can make terrible financial decisions and be exonerated completely on the basis that they are allowed to make those mistakes.

    Loans aren't predatory, you should read the terms and budget your college experience accordingly before WILLINGLY signing onto 5/6 figure debt.

    I spoke to an old high school peer who chose to go out of state to their "dream" school and hasn't even started their career 4 years out of college. There's nothing wrong with have a dream college, but if you can't afford it, then loans aren't your golden key. But people will constantly fetishize the college experience and having a degree coming out of an Ivy League or preferred institution.

    My dream school was Brown University for their comprehensive CS program. I couldn't afford to go there, and there was no way in hell I was going to be able to without loan assistance. So I decided to compromise between FSU or FAU, and I went with the latter purely because of the cost.

    Tuition Costs Per Year (by 2010 Rates)
    Brown - 54k
    FSU - 19k
    FAU - 11k

    I paid for 4 and a half years of education at FAU, less than a single year would have cost me in Rhode Island. I paid my way with grants and scholarships I earned in Highschool, but took a loan for the last 2 semesters. The amount of unclaimed grants alone could pay for thousands of people's educational costs or at least a significant portion of it.

    But even then I am all for people having student loan relief/forgiveness. But it should be enforced based on eligibility, and percentage based on various factors INCLUDING selected major. And let's not pretend that there aren't solutions for those who already paid their loans off, at the very least some tax breaks for those who WOULD BE eligible for an amount of forgiveness to be awarded some kind of relief elsewhere.
     
  12. c7spheres

    c7spheres GuitArtist

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    Right. I see that. I feel it a better and more more fair solution. Give people the option to go into mass debt and declare bankruptcy if needed, but don't just forgive it unless everyone else is going to get the opportunity for a free education for whatever they want also. Maybe a lump sum payout should be an option too? If the average debt being forgiven is $75k for example then pepole could opt to go to school for free or get a $75k lump sum payout. This way the people with education will still get an immediate advantage in the workforce while all the responsible people can go to school and get an updated education and have a competing chance for a future or they can at least get some compensation for being responsible.
    -I don't think people should be bailed out when they knew beforehand what they were getting into.

    I get what you're saying but I don't think it's so much jealousy or missed opportunities as it is rewarding irresponsibility. Why should anyone just have their student loan forgiven? They agreed to a contract. I think, at the very most, the fairest thing to do would be to just allow people to file bankruptcy on it or something.
    - People with college have more opportiunity and make more money than those that don't have college. Now we want to make the wage and employment gap even larger? Think of all the people that would be getting screwed by this that have no college education.
    - How about forgive the debt but make people work it off in prison or community service for the next 10 years while everyone else is allowed to go to school and catch up? Then we can all be on the same page in terms of education, income and employment opportunities. I just don't see the point of bailing out people with an already huge advantage. Another option would be to fogive the debt but not anyone forgiven to earn more than minimum wage for the next 20 years. This would help balance things out a bit.
    - Yes, I'm in extreme dystopia mode right now. Signing off ; (
     
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  13. Mathemagician

    Mathemagician SS.org Regular

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    Because debt is the problem for everyone. And if college is made free by taxing for it, anyone who wants to go CAN go, but anyone who doesn’t want to does not.

    The “goal” is making education accessible. It is NOT to “give out free money”. Life is long. If someone wants to go back to school at 40 for free they absolutely can.

    But I’m not advocating for the government to just hand out the “cost of college” in a check. That’s just 6 years of $1k/mo universal basic income by another name. And a different conversation altogether.

    As an example, the VA system will NEVER benefit me. But I WANT to pay for it. I actually want veterans to have access to the same healthcare that senators get. I really want that for everyone, but at the very least for servicemen and women.

    I’m not asking for the government to build me a separate hospital. I want people to have access to the things they need.

    Similarly by that logic Medicare doesn’t help me, so why TF should I pay for old retired people today? Because it HELPS people live better lives.

    The entire country would get a tiny ass “tax break” if we eliminated social security. But millions of retirees would be unable to purchase both food and medicine.

    Libraries are not used BY everyone but are available for the benefit OF everyone.

    So we pay for it. Because it helps society.

    You are focusing on “I want a cut of it for ME right NOW”.

    If there is someone who wants to start their own firm, but they can’t yet leave their day job b/c of the debt they owe. The act of removing their debt allows them to start businesses and that allows them to hire more people and that may be a job opening for you in the future to make more money. Even without having gone to college a person would stand to benefit from new/more businesses. When there’s more jobs than people wages go up, which helps everyone.

    You are still focused on “punishing” those who took out loans.

    By going to college one is already forgoing 4+ years of income. They only people who I knew that partied in their early 20’s were the ones that started working immediately. The 4 years of lost income is already a punishment.

    Doubling down and demanding that the screws be stuck to them with lifelong debt is shortsighted for all involved. It’s a “feelings” reason instead of an “economic” reason to resist absolving debt.
     
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  14. Jonathan20022

    Jonathan20022 Engineer

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    I'm focusing on this because I don't understand your sentiment, no one's punishing anyone.

    These young adults are willingly signing themselves out to massive loans without consideration for how they work or the timeline in which they are expected to pay them back.

    The amount of people that fall into your "budding entrepenuers" group who are just waiting to pay their debt off before they can go out into the world and be successful isn't as massive as you make it seem.

    They are UNDER of their own volition, they don't have the funding to start their own business once it's paid off unless they take out business loans and statistically, call for bankruptcy in less than a year afterwards.
     
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  15. narad

    narad Progressive metal and politics

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    It's under their own volition, but it's not a situation that realistically people have any control over at that age. Let's say you worked hard and are good enough to get into a top private school. Your choices:
    (1) You have rich parents, you get to go.
    (2) You don't have rich parents, you take out loans.
    (3) You don't go.

    Somehow being 18 and having that money saved up is not realistic. And so that's a pretty shitty set of circumstances and is just going to grow the class divide wider. I respect schools like Harvard that have a big enough endowment that they'll basically work with you whatever your financial need be to get you in there, but most of the other hundreds of thousands of qualified individuals with their sites on other private schools aren't as lucky. And if you can get into Brown, I'd like to see you go to Brown.

    I like the UK system. You get a degree, and if you get out and aren't making about a threshold high enough to pay it back after N years, it's forgiven. If you don't make above a certain threshold, you're not making huge payments. Honestly I forget the details but it's definitely nice. What I like about it as it acts as a referendum to the uni, that if they charge high tuition, their programs should be worth it. That goes for any degree area.
     
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  16. StevenC

    StevenC SS.org Regular

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    Only the top schools in the UK are allowed to charge the full 9k. Think Oxford, Cambridge, Imperial and QUB.
     
  17. narad

    narad Progressive metal and politics

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    And UCL...
     
  18. StevenC

    StevenC SS.org Regular

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    And Edinburgh.
     
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  19. Jonathan20022

    Jonathan20022 Engineer

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    No, you go somewhere else where you can afford it. Like in my own personal college journey, 220k BEFORE cost of living didn't sound appealing. So I still went to college and got the education I desired. I got into Brown because my mother thought I could and forced me to apply to prove a point and showboat to her friends. But I still chose not to go because it was financially irresponsible. I would have loved to at the end of the day, but I'm not going to live out of my means and shackle myself then hope the government bails me out.

    Why is a common University seen as something less when it isn't? Peers who went to prestigious unis aren't out-earning me and other graduates, those of us who stayed local and went to the nearest or most affordable option.

    I'm not against forgiveness programs as a whole, but there needs to be some serious eligibility concerns so people don't make irresponsible decisions and expect to be bailed out as a realistic expectation.

    That system sounds wonderful in the UK, because I know what it's like to look for work and not have any prospects. It can be more daunting than just get degree -> automatically find job, but not always the case.
     
  20. MaxOfMetal

    MaxOfMetal Likes trem wankery. Super Moderator

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    I just don't understand why folks are so willing to spite thier own prosperity because someone might have an opportunity for a better life that they themselves might not have gotten.

    It feels very American though, that's for sure.
     
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