student loan forgiveness

jaxadam

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I don’t know how anyone can consider student loan forgiveness just. It’s punishing people who have been financially responsible and contributing to society and rewarding those who haven’t. I can see those people who benefit from it would wish to support it since they’ll benefit from it but I can’t see how anyone can see it as fair. On top of that it’s a complete abuse of power.

If they wanted to provide a bunch of money for future tuition I could support that but it is unjust to do it retroactively what about all the people who missed out on getting an education or paid back loans they now didn’t need to or signed up for the military etc because they couldn’t afford to do college otherwise?

It also doesn’t make any economic sense.. having debt if anything would encourage people to seek employment.. if you want to help them invest money in creating more jobs. Not pump more money into economy via loan forgiveness further driving up inflation.

Biden is a fucking moron plain and simple. He makes trump look like a genius and Trump is an idiot.

Hey man I'm just hoping in about 20 years I get that mortgage forgiveness! I mean, I was sold on the dream of owning a home, and I got one (they forced me to) and it did not give me the things that homeownership promised. They DEFINITELY didn't warn me about the kids part.
 

nightflameauto

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@jaxadam
Home ownership feels like a scam. You "get value" by constantly paying for maintenance, constantly paying taxes on the property and building, constantly paying for this little add-on or that little add-on, and you get the benefit of having at least half, probably more, of your free time sucked up keeping the piece of shit from collapsing on itself and trying to make the yard look like anything other than a bramble patch.

Grumble grumble.
 

TedEH

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having debt if anything would encourage people to seek employment
I only skim this thread but "debt is good because it encourages you to work" is a shitty take.

creating more jobs
We don't need more jobs, we need better jobs. I say this as someone who is well payed for what I do: Everyone should have it as good as me. The people who scrub dishes and toilets and flip burgers etc. all work harder and put in longer hours than I do and easily deserve as much opportunity as me - but they can't if they're strapped down with debt. Where's the justice in that?

Hey man I'm just hoping in about 20 years I get that mortgage forgiveness!
You kid - but that sounds fantastic to me. Can you imagine how great a system it would be if every person was guaranteed a minimum viable lifestyle (food + a home)?

But of course the roadblocks to the kinds of systems that would allow true freedom like that are those that have not wanting to share with others. Because "that would be punishing those who deserve it".
 

jaxadam

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@jaxadam
Home ownership feels like a scam. You "get value" by constantly paying for maintenance, constantly paying taxes on the property and building, constantly paying for this little add-on or that little add-on, and you get the benefit of having at least half, probably more, of your free time sucked up keeping the piece of shit from collapsing on itself and trying to make the yard look like anything other than a bramble patch.

Grumble grumble.

When people say “I paid off my home, I own it free and clear!” I say “Skip a few tax payments and then see who owns it!”
 

TakeNoPrisoners

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My
I only skim this thread but "debt is good because it encourages you to work" is a shitty take.


We don't need more jobs, we need better jobs. I say this as someone who is well payed for what I do: Everyone should have it as good as me. The people who scrub dishes and toilets and flip burgers etc. all work harder and put in longer hours than I do and easily deserve as much opportunity as me - but they can't if they're strapped down with debt. Where's the justice in that?


You kid - but that sounds fantastic to me. Can you imagine how great a system it would be if every person was guaranteed a minimum viable lifestyle (food + a home)?

But of course the roadblocks to the kinds of systems that would allow true freedom like that are those that have not wanting to share with others. Because "that would be punishing those who deserve it".
main point is that it’s unfair to those who chose not to go to college or joined military or already paid loans because they didn’t know they would be forgiven… the other points I made were just piling on additional reasons but really all I’m arguing is that it’s unfair because people made choices without knowing loans would be forgiven and that is unfair. As I said I’m cool with funding future tuition. My issue is it’s unfair to those who paid loans or didn’t take loans that now could have or joined military to pay for education.
 

nightflameauto

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My

main point is that it’s unfair to those who chose not to go to college or joined military or already paid loans because they didn’t know they would be forgiven… the other points I made were just piling on additional reasons but really all I’m arguing is that it’s unfair because people made choices without knowing loans would be forgiven and that is unfair.
I find it odd how many people look to the past when making decisions about fairness, yet have a horrible time looking at where we are today, where we'd like to be tomorrow, and reconciling that with "unfair because $past_decisions."

Progress doesn't happen by making sure everybody that already has what they need is taken care of first. Until we get, as a collective, that lifting up our lowest helps us all, we're stuck in this quagmire of "but, but, but, MOM! I WANTED THAT!"
 

TedEH

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unfair because people made choices without knowing

Even if I agreed, that argument is meaningless unless you can provide a less unfair alternative. Life is inherently unfair. At any given moment you have to make whatever decisions you're going to make without the knowledge of what will or won't come of those choices. I'll grant you that there's an element of unfairness to that.

But hey, having your lifestyle screwed because you can't get out of debt because someone else is sad that it doesn't fit their theoretical model of "justice", that's totally fair, right?
 

TakeNoPrisoners

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I find it odd how many people look to the past when making decisions about fairness, yet have a horrible time looking at where we are today, where we'd like to be tomorrow, and reconciling that with "unfair because $past_decisions."

Progress doesn't happen by making sure everybody that already has what they need is taken care of first. Until we get, as a collective, that lifting up our lowest helps us all, we're stuck in this quagmire of "but, but, but, MOM! I WANTED THAT!"
But the issue isnt that you’re helping the poor it’s that you are being unfair to people who were in an equally poor position.

Also it does more to hurt the economy than help than help the economy.

It’s unnecessarily unjust. There’s plenty you can do to help the poor and improve the economy that doesn’t require you to treat people unequally who were in similar financial situation. The issue is people who are equally poor who were more financially responsible and cautious and did more to contribute to society are being punished by this and while those who were less responsible are rewarded. Do you think all the people joined the military during that period would have done so had they been offer free tuition? What about the people who chose not to go to school or went to cheaper school or shorter program or pursued different career because of costs? Is that fair to them? What about the people who worked their ass off to repay their loans? The issue has nothing to do with helping the poor. We’re talking people in the same economic bracket and circumstance being treated unfairly.

No one made anyone take out student loans. People should be responsible for the debt they take on. Yes help the poor. But don’t do it by target just the poor that are irresponsible thereby punishing the who we’re responsible .. do it fairly.
 
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narad

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But the issue isnt that you’re helping the poor it’s that you are being unfair to people who were in an equally poor position.

Also it does more to hurt the economy than help than help the economy.

It’s unnecessarily unjust. There’s plenty you can do to help the poor and improve the economy that doesn’t require you to treat people unequally who were in similar financial situation. The issue is people who are equally poor who were more financially responsible and cautious and did more to contribute to society are being punished by this and while those who were less responsible are rewarded. Do you think all the people joined the military during that period would have done so had they been offer free tuition? What he people that didn’t go to school? What who repaid their loans? The issue has nothing to do with helping the poor. We’re talking people in same economic bracket and circumstance being treated unfairly.

I'm one of these people being treated "unfairly". Of course I would also have liked my loans forgiven. Of course I can also see that what is better for society as a whole will also benefit me, because I live in that society. And that's in the case that you value yourself more than countless future generations, which is already a pretty flouncy position if you want to talk about what is morally right.

I also want to reiterate that the amount being forgiven is not a crazy amount. It's not like "I didn't become a dentist because I was worried about $200k in student loans -- now these guys get it taken care of for free!". It's significant, but it's also about the same amount as one year's worth of interest on my loans at peak, which was just a nice chunk of profit for those lenders. It's then worth also emphasizing that the parts of this bill that aren't outright forgiveness could have prevented the entire need for forgiveness if government had considered passing something similar in the 90s when education costs started skyrocketing -- if only to match the systems in place in most of Europe.

You can't have nice things if you want to argue that it would be unfair to everyone who grew up with your current shitty things.
 

TedEH

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It’s unnecessarily unjust.
Again, if it's unnecessarily unjust - what's the solution that fits your model of justice?

Also it does more to hurt the economy than help than help the economy.
[Citation needed]

in similar financial situation
If the example is a person who opted not to go to school, or did go to school but managed to pay it off, then the fact that you don't have education debt means that you, by definition, are not in the same financial situation. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

did more to contribute to society
That's a load of crap. In what measurable way can you claim that the nebulous group of "people who are unfairly treated by others getting financial assistance" contribute more to society? That's a non-argument. It's ad hominem. It's an admittance that you don't have a real point here.

Do you think all the people joined the military during that period would have done so had they been offer free tuition?
I'm not American, but I thought that was an actual incentive at some point.
But also yes, I think that a person who would consider joining the military under any circumstances are likely to have considered it under other circumstances.

What about the people who chose not to go to school or went to cheaper school or shorter program or pursued different career because of costs?
They probably aren't in debt. I'm a person who fits this category. Non only do I not feel slighted by it, but it turned out fantastically for me. Even the people around me benefit, because my success grants them a safety net - same as what other educated people with good jobs could do if we give them a boost. Everyone wins!

What about the people who worked their ass off to repay their loans?
Again, if they had the means to repay their loans, they were not in the same financial position as someone who cannot. They either got assistance elsewhere, or the education did its job, and provided for them - which is exactly what was promised.

We’re talking people in the same economic bracket and circumstance being treated unfairly.
No we're not talking about people in the same economic circumstances. That is a HUGE detail you're getting very wrong.
 

Mathemagician

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My

main point is that it’s unfair to those who chose not to go to college or joined military or already paid loans because they didn’t know they would be forgiven… the other points I made were just piling on additional reasons but really all I’m arguing is that it’s unfair because people made choices without knowing loans would be forgiven and that is unfair. As I said I’m cool with funding future tuition. My issue is it’s unfair to those who paid loans or didn’t take loans that now could have or joined military to pay for education.

This is the same logic that would dictate “no research into diseases should be done because other people suffered from those diseases already”.

It’s been pointed out before, but the primary argument against student loan forgiveness boils down to “jealousy”. That’s it. That’s the whole argument.

Meanwhile If a business sells stuff, having some 1 in 7 Americans have more free cash to spend will actually boost economic activity and reward those who have businesses. Because that loan money is no longer disappearing into a black hole but is instead getting spent locally.
 

nightflameauto

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But the issue isnt that you’re helping the poor it’s that you are being unfair to people who were in an equally poor position.

Also it does more to hurt the economy than help than help the economy.

It’s unnecessarily unjust. There’s plenty you can do to help the poor and improve the economy that doesn’t require you to treat people unequally who were in similar financial situation. The issue is people who are equally poor who were more financially responsible and cautious and did more to contribute to society are being punished by this and while those who were less responsible are rewarded. Do you think all the people joined the military during that period would have done so had they been offer free tuition? What about the people who chose not to go to school or went to cheaper school or shorter program or pursued different career because of costs? Is that fair to them? What about the people who worked their ass off to repay their loans? The issue has nothing to do with helping the poor. We’re talking people in the same economic bracket and circumstance being treated unfairly.

No one made anyone take out student loans. People should be responsible for the debt they take on. Yes help the poor. But don’t do it by target just the poor that are irresponsible thereby punishing the who we’re responsible .. do it fairly.
You know what this sounds like to those of us with a bit of understanding of how the world works and a little bit of compassion for our fellow man/woman/human? It sounds like someone that came from an abusive house pissed off that kids today aren't all being beaten twice per day.

You want a better world? Or would you rather wallow in the miseries that you had to suffer forever, just because you suffered them? That's the root of the issue here.
 

MFB

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My main point is that it’s unfair to those who chose not to go to college or joined military or already paid loans because they didn’t know they would be forgiven… the other points I made were just piling on additional reasons but really all I’m arguing is that it’s unfair because people made choices without knowing loans would be forgiven and that is unfair. As I said I’m cool with funding future tuition. My issue is it’s unfair to those who paid loans or didn’t take loans that now could have or joined military to pay for education.

It's almost like the system is flawed in that we have people literally willing to risk their own life or take someone else's just for a High School 2.0 degree that we've considered more valuable because it cost a lot to get it, not necessarily that you earned it by a bunch of hard work? Even if you get nothing but D+ grades for 4 years to get that degree, there's are X amount of others ahead of you in line that actually got it because they KNEW the material and could prove it very easily. But once you get into the real world, all that goes away and it's just about whether or not you have it.

edit: apparently I never hit post on this draft yesterday
 

Grand Moff Tim

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I wish social media was a thing two thousand years ago.

"Jesus died for our sins, so we no longer have to provide animal sacrifices to God."
"WHAT!? That's bullshit. What about all the lambs I've sacrificed? I was responsible and always made sure to present my sacrifices unto the Lord in a timely manner, and now this? Jesus Christ."
 

LordCashew

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I wish social media was a thing two thousand years ago.

"Jesus died for our sins, so we no longer have to provide animal sacrifices to God."
"WHAT!? That's bullshit. What about all the lambs I've sacrificed? I was responsible and always made sure to present my sacrifices unto the Lord in a timely manner, and now this? Jesus Christ."
You could take that even further back to the command for debts to be forgiven in the Mosaic law. That was only every 49 years I think, but the years around it would probably be very interesting.
 

wheresthefbomb

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I wish social media was a thing two thousand years ago.

"Jesus died for our sins, so we no longer have to provide animal sacrifices to God."
"WHAT!? That's bullshit. What about all the lambs I've sacrificed? I was responsible and always made sure to present my sacrifices unto the Lord in a timely manner, and now this? Jesus Christ."

Excellent use of JC as an expletive, 11/10 post thank you for my morning lols
 

Drew

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t’s unnecessarily unjust. There’s plenty you can do to help the poor and improve the economy that doesn’t require you to treat people unequally who were in similar financial situation. The issue is people who are equally poor who were more financially responsible and cautious and did more to contribute to society are being punished by this and while those who were less responsible are rewarded. Do you think all the people joined the military during that period would have done so had they been offer free tuition? What about the people who chose not to go to school or went to cheaper school or shorter program or pursued different career because of costs? Is that fair to them? What about the people who worked their ass off to repay their loans? The issue has nothing to do with helping the poor. We’re talking people in the same economic bracket and circumstance being treated unfairly.
TBH, I've never understood this argument.

My tax dollars already go to a ton of things that I don't get any direct benefit from, even if we limit ourselves to education. Student loan interest is tax deductible - if I didn't take out student loans, by letting people who did claim that on their taxes, aren't we already subsidizing them and "punishing" me for not getting a degree I had to borrow to afford? We give free college education to the military. Doesn't that unfairly benefit the people who served in the military but either never saw active duty or did but returned unharmed, over those who died in service and never got to use their free tuition? Why should an Army desk jockey get to go to college for free, when I have to pay, and my friend's brother who died in Afghanistan never got the chance to use that benefit?

Or, more broadly, the American Recovery and Reivestment act provided something like $800B in stimulus spending, mostly for infrastructure. Only a small share of that was used to improve roads and bridges here in Massachusetts, and I won't even eveer drive over all of them. Should I be outraged because this bill helped other people? The Federal government sent $15B to Texas and Louisiana in the aftermath of Hurricane Harvey, and I didn't see a dime of that. Should I be upset?

Or, we can just take a step back and say that what's unfair isn't that we're helping some people and not others; what's unfair is that some people need help, and to not help them would be unjust. Perfect equality in treatment isn't possible, so let's all just agree to do the best we can and not worry if someone's getting it better than we are. Plenty of others are getting it worse, and I don't see anyone lining up to take on more debt just because $10k is only a drop in the bucket to someone with $250,000 in debt from an advanced degree.
 

Wiltonauer

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I paid my way through medical school by posing for a lingerie catalog. No, wait. Shit. That was the Katherine Heigl character on Grey’s Anatomy.
 


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