so i dont get this....

Discussion in 'Gear & Equipment' started by newbcaster, Jan 16, 2021.

  1. newbcaster

    newbcaster SS.org Regular

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    It's like people have lost their hacker spirit.

    Dollars to donuts my old as f I7 laptop with 16 gigs of ram and decent video card would absolutely smoke the processing power of the Kemper or the Quad cortex.

    Why hasn't someone hacked this? If people can make hackintoshes then this can't be that hard.

    Willing to bet a touch screen and a raspbery pi would get this done. A laptop would be overkill.

    And honestly, the form factor for either of them isnt that great. some 1/4 inch jacks, xlr ports and some pots...im sure this can be done. Any ideas as to how to go about this? I'd throw a fair bit of time into this.

    what would be cool as hell is to find a way to use both formats in one box. Open source it.
     
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  2. laxu

    laxu SS.org Regular

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    You will still be dealing with issues like VST plugin latency that are not a problem with dedicated DSPs made to run code written for them. On top of that VST plugins have wildly varying support for MIDI so hooking up knob controllers might be problem. They are also not made to work with touchscreens.

    If you are thinking of running say the Kemper firmware on your Raspberry Pi, that's not going to happen. It does not run on anything but the DSPs it is meant to run on. Emulating it would be more work than creating your own from scratch.
     
  3. olejason

    olejason SS.org Regular

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    You'd need unfettered access to the program(s) flashed to the chips. Not an easy task.
     
  4. Shask

    Shask SS.org Regular

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    Because Digital Signal Processors, and Multipurpose General Microprocessors are 2 totally different things.
     
  5. diagrammatiks

    diagrammatiks SS.org Regular

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    a dedicated dsp will run circles around your entire computer.

    a raspberry pi would be a little baby.

    but why you're talking about already exists. your computer + helix native + an interface = all done.
     
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  6. TedEH

    TedEH Cromulent

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    Yes and no. "Raw processing power", on paper, yeah, your laptop probably wins. But you're talking about a single-purpose bit of specialized hardware vs. a general purpose computer that both was never made for that purpose (therefor is fighting it's design a bit) and that uses much of its processing power for general-purpose stuff that don't contribute much to this purpose.

    Consider that an ax or similar is going to have a signal chain that looks something like having a DI -> digital conversion -> maybe a small buffer? -> Strait into dedicated DSP chain -> analog conversion -> You hear it.

    Compare that to what your laptop has to do to accomplish the same thing:
    DI -> To your interface which does the conversion -> USB/Firewire communication -> A driver that may or may not be any good -> The driver runs under an operating system that may or may not be giving it priority and is absolutely using some of it's available time to do "other stuff" -> to a buffer somewhere that your program is going to read -> potentially resampling a bunch of times -> A whole software stack running on OS that takes it's own slice of the PCs time -> Software-based DSP that probably is not as efficient as a dedicated DSP chip -> Software mixing and that goes back to another buffer somewhere -> possibly re-sampling again before sending it back to your USB -> usb communication again -> Interface converts back to analog -> you get to hear it now.

    While general purpose computer is very capable there's huge number of disadvantages:
    - Lots more potential points of failure
    - Lots more potential hiccups that can affect latency
    - DSP is being done less efficiently
    - You're subject to driver problems, OS updates, and all the other general-purpose-computer-stuff that has nothing to do with audio
    - You still need specialized audio hardware on top of it

    Can you use a laptop and an interface to do everything an Axe-FX would do, assuming you have sims and plugins of the same quality? Sure. But if you had an Axe-FX already, or were making a purchasing decision between the two for that specific purpose, the PC just doesn't make any sense.
     
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  7. nickgray

    nickgray SS.org Regular

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    Well, yes, but as others have mentioned, you don't understand the issue of general purpose computing vs. specialized (DSP, in our case).

    Also, with regards to dollars, Laptops are also cheaper simply because there's way more demand for them than for guitar modelers. Nothing really prohibits anyone to make a modeler based on a mini PC of some sort or laptop hardware, but the consumer will have to pay a premium for that hardware simply because the demand isn't there. Don't forget that you need sound card hardware as well, as well as drivers. Windows-based license will very likely be too expensive, so Linux it is, which means you have to hire people to deal with the whole audio on Linux thing, in addition to DSP engineers. Hopefully by now you start to see that a DSP-based modeling unit actually has some sense to it.
     
  8. MrWulf

    MrWulf SS.org Regular

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    Man i love it when someone get an SSO intellectual beatdown. If it is so easy to hack then feels free to try first, sir.
     
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  9. Emperoff

    Emperoff Not using 5150s Contributor

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    Now that's how you make a first post. :rofl:
     
  10. wakjob

    wakjob SS.org Regular

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    Juuuuust come out swingin' for the fences and :pray:
     
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  11. KailM

    KailM SS.org Regular

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    I don’t have any idea what any of you are talking about.

    [Goes and plugs guitar into 5150...]
     
  12. TedEH

    TedEH Cromulent

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    I mean, if it gets people talking :lol:
     
  13. bostjan

    bostjan MicroMetal Contributor

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    As a side topic, I did halfway expect some sort of open source modeler to exist for R Pi, but it doesn't look like there is. Probably all of the legal issues aren't worth trying to crack that nut.

    FWIW, though, Boss's micro BR pocket recorder has some really decent sounding amp models and no noticeable latency. However, the interface is clunky and there aren't too many options when it comes to customizing. But for a piece of tech that goes for $70-80 used, the modelling is phenomenal.
     
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  14. cmpxchg

    cmpxchg SS.org Regular

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    OP is actually more right than they realize. You want a mobile SOC vs desktop/laptop chips because SOCs usually have big DSPs because of modern cellular standards. The Headrush floor modeler is a phone SOC that runs Linux plus an additional audio unit (dunno if it's DSP+IO or just IO, I got as far as realizing that the firmware update is just a flashable ext4 partition before I got bored).
     
  15. laxu

    laxu SS.org Regular

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    There aren't any legal issues most likely, it's just that making a guitar amp modeler is a lot of specialty expertise not that many have. Then you would also need to have the knowhow to make all that work with some off the shelf parts and keep it low cost. It's just overall not worth the effort.

    I think TC or Line6 tried a programmable pedal in the past and it never got anywhere because the number of people with DSP expertise willing to make good use of it is too small.
     
  16. c7spheres

    c7spheres GuitArtist

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    - It seems this would be more of a personal hobby/project for someone just to see if it's possible. Or for someone who wants to give it to the world for free or something.
    - In reality though it seems one could just put in a few more hours of overtime and buy whatever they want. I'm guessing it would take a lot more time to achieve this than just work extra hours and buy the actual product. Even if talkkinig about making minimum wage and buying and AxeFxIII for $2100. It'd probably still take more time than that.
     
  17. WarMachine

    WarMachine SS.org Regular

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    [​IMG]
     
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  18. SSK0909

    SSK0909 SS.org Regular

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    Which is ironically far easier to clone/copy than the topic subject :)
     
  19. bostjan

    bostjan MicroMetal Contributor

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    There are a few pedal applets for R Pi, but, IMO, none of those are really anything special in terms of what they can do or how customizable they are in their native state off of github.

    Generally speaking, there does seem to be a ton of interest in R Pi applications for music. I've got a ton of R Pi's that I use for all sorts of stuff - Quadruped robot, servo "drumming" machine, temperature control and monitoring, home security, and even a little microtonal synth that is hardly playable, and it's all super easy, because there are tons of libraries for servo control, temperature controls, wireless camera handling, and even midi stuff, but there is essentially nothing for audio processing, and even not that many options when it comes to audio I/O.

    You can't tell me, though, that there is more use for a 3D printed, 25 cm wide, quadruped robot, that does nothing more than stomp around aimlessly, than there is for a multitrack recorder or audio processor, yet, the available libraries are more heavily weighted toward the former.
     
  20. GunpointMetal

    GunpointMetal SS.org Regular

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    IME the people who would spend the time developing this wouldn't have spent enough time actually playing the guitar to make it something everyone would want. Most musicians want our technology to get out of the way as soon as its out of the box.
     

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