Separate names with a comma.
Discussion in 'Extended Range Guitars' started by HeHasTheJazzHands, Nov 7, 2015.
There’s a pedal market in if it self
It’s so weird that they didn’t modify things slightly to address that gap. Look at some of these guitars that have snap-on wings, they don’t even have a gap like this and they’re basically LEGO guitars.
Tosin, how is moving to an inventory based business model going to affect pricing because I still want one but if non custom ones are the same price as custom ones were I’m going to be kind unsure
Yea, i don't understand why, unless there is a very large effect to ergonomics. It works for large companies like ibanez where they cut the necks to go on various bodies. But this is literally 1 model shape.
starting at 6:00
definitely an interesting commentary.
They aren’t wrong!!
That was an incredibly bad take.
A terrible take they’re making points up also feels valid to mention that Tosin ain’t a luthier so why is he gonna he involved in physically aiding manufacturing. It’s not a stupid model look at ormsbys gtr séries made by another company. What we have here is that at a small scale. Don’t like these guys.
I'm not sure I follow. They looked at it very rationally. It does look horrible from a customer perspective, there has been very little transparency, and when asked, most of it comes off as excuses. They are offering refunds. Which is good. Two reputable builders have run into issues turning out a guitar though, and walking back the whole idea of the semi-custom thing. Looks like someone caught over promising and then having to under deliver. Better to do the reverse.
CliffsNotes for those judging by thumbnails?
I said it before, that shape is a nightmare to have to mill clean, to spec and consistently. I don't doubt that Grover runs a top notch shop and he has experienced people (and a mountain of experience himself) on full custom, low number and even full production.
But one of the things that gave me pause was Falbo talking about the stuff that needs to be done by hand (one look at the design and you can see there's at least a few of them), and the first post from Tosin about Grover taking over operations was bragging about the heel being carved by CNC now. The heel in particular coming, at a minimum, after you've carved and mounted the neck and potentially carved the especially curving top. The process for jigging, mounting, carving, mating, rejigging, mounting, recarving etc. on these looks like hell from an operations standpoint.
By comparison, the Friedman guitars can basically be milled top, then bottom for the body, likely a single carve procedure for the neck, and any neck can be mated up with any body at the end of the process.
Tosin's a cool guy, talented musician, definitely came up with a neat design on these but a big part OF the design process is asking yourself "why isn't anyone else doing this?" and only 1% of the time it's because you're any smarter than them; the other 99% of the time is because they did it and it didn't work. I get Tosin pushes the "make the tool for the musician with no compromises" except this whole damn endeavor has been compromises.
Just like I said in the Etherial thread, somebody running this like a real business would've written up a list of the most important features necessary to achieve the vision and honor the brand, grade them on how important they are and also on how difficult they are to pull off, and nix the unnecessary stuff to helps streamline the process. Right off the, you could do 100% of the Abasi carve as a neckthru, and cut the whole guitar out in two passes. The set neck adds an extra two or more steps alone.
These are eventually going to be WMI built with bolt on necks and poplar burl veneers before these are officially delivered at any acceptable scale when meanwhile these could've been done much more practically in either of the other shops they've passed through already. Or do like Daemoness, quote $5k and 5 years and at least have a practical chance of delivering on your promise. This stuff about the design and the pricetag and the delivery being important means fuck all if you miss the mark on all three anyway.
They said the failures are because Tosin is a bad and inexperienced businessman, and that he's quick to blame everyone else. They were suspect of the excuses when it was Falbo being thrown under the bus, but they call 100% bullshit on him blaming Grover because he has as much experience/reputation as he does, along with delivering the Friedmans in consistent time and consistent quality.
From a manufacturing standpoint, you're correct. Schecter, Ibanez, ESP, PRS, Chapman, Solar, Strandberg all outsource designs to other factories. A lot of those guitars are built in the same factories. Apple does this with Tech. In this way, you have a Design Firm outsourcing the construction of a design to a factory (separate business entity) that tools up a factory to build said designs. However, in ALL of these cases, there are no custom options. Design Firm buys out right, or presells X number of units with perdetermined specs. Guitars a made in batches, and then shipped. In all cases but Chapman and Solar, These companies established their name and business as a builder first before starting to outsource. Chapman at the very least had the association and backing of Anderton's to market the guitar if not financial partnership as well. Rob was on the sales and business side of the music industry long before he was a youtube personality. Ola had sold his own signature guitars for years successfully before opening his business. How did he do it? He spec'd them himself. Set the options. And you bought what was available. Tosin I think was trying to pull in a little of the Kiesel/Carvin thing. But he doesn't have the business experience. I think that a lot of this can be laid at the feet of impatience.
There first dumb bit was "nice to see your guitar business is going so well you've got all this time to be making new products", relating to the Neural DSP thing.
Angry people in this thread aren't raging against the most recent Tosin post. The relevant part of the video is basically a dissection of the post in this thread.
"Grover Jackson doesn't know how to build guitars now, remember when it was Frank Falbo." Not really what was said in the thread.
Wondering why they went into business with Grover knowing they weren't the primary contract, including misunderstanding the post as "bitching someone else is getting priority".
Speculating that Friedman guitars don't sell better than Abasi, which honestly seems doubtful, and blind ignorance to the existence of the Friedman guitars brand.
Calling Tosin stupid for being surprised his custom guitar business has non identical orders, which isn't what was in the comment.
"You know what to expect as the parameters" then later ripping Abasi for limiting those parameters based on what Grover suggested: "Not Abasi guitars, Grover Jackson guitars".
Angry that they've rejected guitars with mismatched specs and paint issues.
Not mentioning that Tosin has consistently offered refunds at every turn, but highlighting taking thousands of dollars every chance they get.
Angry that Abasi doesn't have their own factory like Suhr "go buy an Ormsby".
Just not super high on looking at the thing rationally. Maybe I'm speaking out of turn, but with Abasi it seems that when something has gone wrong the first words out of their mouths have been "full refund". Whereas these guys seem to just be getting a kick out of a complicated business having some hiccups getting off the ground.
Not that the design isn't cursed, just that of all the takes I didn't find this at all insightful. Like Randy's post is well thought out.
My curiosity is piqued by the question of whether Tosin will still be a sufficient draw by the time the guitars are actually ready for mass consumption?
It’s not a slight on him, more a question regarding the speed at which the music industry moves in comparison to how slowly the space whale seems to swim. There’s a 202 page thread here, but it started 4 years ago and it’s relatively the same bunch of guys posting... will there still be a demand in another 2 or 3 years?
I'm usually pretty open minded however that podcast can fucking end itself, have never managed to get into it. Just a pair of overly entitled dudes shitting on absolutely everything that happens to be flavour of the month. There's being honest and critical, then there's just being sensationalist wankers, although will concede ground that they aren't the only ones doing it.
Levi is just as bad as Jared Dines in my opinion, uses Facebook Guitar groups and forums like ours to fuel his drama centric/click bait videos and podcasts. His skill in tabbing and transcribing music is great, but he's using his platform to give himself a position to comment on rotating talking points all while shilling Ormsby because they probably hooked him up.
I can see why he does it though, his channel is weirdly pulling low numbers for his subscriber count and rate of uploads. Controversy brings the numbers because his only major videos (5k views and up) have been about Gibson Meme controversy/and of course the fake guitar playing one he just uploaded which actually hit 100k which is impressive. But pretty sad considering everything else throughout 2019 stagnated at the 1 - 3k mark.
I remember when the Joey Sturgis controversy happened and he gave the customer who got DMCA'd by Sturgis crap for trying to resolve the situation without throwing Joey under the bus and naming him. Levi should stick to transcription and stop giving misinformed takes, everytime I tune into one of his podcast videos while I'm at work trying to find something to listen I just find him more and more unlikable.
The best thing he could have done was present all of the details transparently, the audience can make their own judgements on the situation.
It'll be like how these days we rarely buy Les Pauls for any association with the man. "Grandpa, tell us the story about the man that did thumb slapping on the eight string!"
Only thanks to internet technologies, children of the future won't have to ask ol' ramblin' grandpa about stories! And grandpa can get back to yelling at cars and clouds.
By the time the Abasi guitars are release there will be only one cloud, as in the great war we blotted out the sun in an attempt to cut the machines off from their power supply.