(NGD) Fakemachine B7
- Thread starter Bigfan
- Start date
caspian
wanderer
Having it both ways sounds like a great idea. Like throughout human history, people have built on other people's works. Not just artistic stuff either, science, architecture, etc etc. You build on other people's stuff and then someone gets your stuff and makes it cheaper, more accessible, faster, smaller, whatever. ...Until 100 years ago or so and then suddenly what's yours is yours and woe betide anyone else who could get some use out of it! Betting Hollowway is the kinda guy who thinks you should have to pay thousands of dollars for cancer drugs and the like. "Yes people will die but intellectual property is a god given birthright"
Anyway, I actually came here to talk about the fakemachine- it looks really fun, and I've been meaning to get a chibson flying V for a fair while now. I've seen a lot of good reviews for all this kinda chinese rip off stuff and yeah, if it's cheap, it's worth a crack...
TheUnknownOne
SS.org Regular
Well, would you say a Xiaomi phone is an iPhone ripoff and that by buying one you're ripping off Apple ?
If the answer is yes, then that's your opinion, but otherwise there's nothing wrong if this is not sold as a genuine Blackmachine guitar
If the answer is yes, then that's your opinion, but otherwise there's nothing wrong if this is not sold as a genuine Blackmachine guitar
manu80
Jackson for life !
Tough topic. on the one hand, it's a copy of a known shape, without logo. Also those shapes , bevels etc are everywhere today, ran, luthiers, Ibanez etc...so in a way those are copies too. Like the Muff, the TS8 that have all been ripped off but by established companies...etc...but it's fine because they're known brands.
On the other hand, 5000 dollars or more is a rip off for a piece of wood for me too, Gibson, Kiesel whatever etc...don't know how you can justify even with a lot of work that price for a piece of wood anyways, whatever hype there is. Not starting a fight but just commenting like others....but that seems normal to spend that money for some bolt on guitars so ...
On the other hand, 5000 dollars or more is a rip off for a piece of wood for me too, Gibson, Kiesel whatever etc...don't know how you can justify even with a lot of work that price for a piece of wood anyways, whatever hype there is. Not starting a fight but just commenting like others....but that seems normal to spend that money for some bolt on guitars so ...
Bigfan
sixstringer
Well this got heated.
I've bought custom shop guitars before (Strandberg, OAF) and I will probably own a B6 at some point, but right now I don't believe there is a way to order a B7. I could have gone with a Skervesen or a hypemachine, but as I'd never played on of these before and I'd always been interested in the quality I decided to take a risk and order one. I don't believe the market for a $300 chinese ripoff in any way overlaps the market for a real Blackmachine, so I don't really see this as taking business away from Doug. This might look like a BM, but it lacks all the features that they're famous for. Think of it as a very fancy Ibanez RG7321.
I've bought custom shop guitars before (Strandberg, OAF) and I will probably own a B6 at some point, but right now I don't believe there is a way to order a B7. I could have gone with a Skervesen or a hypemachine, but as I'd never played on of these before and I'd always been interested in the quality I decided to take a risk and order one. I don't believe the market for a $300 chinese ripoff in any way overlaps the market for a real Blackmachine, so I don't really see this as taking business away from Doug. This might look like a BM, but it lacks all the features that they're famous for. Think of it as a very fancy Ibanez RG7321.
Bigfan
sixstringer
I specifically bought one without the logo plate.
Lorcan Ward
7slinger
There are probably 1000+ Blackmachine clones or variations being made every year while there are only 1-2 Doug made builds and only a handful of Feline B6s being made every year. You can't really criticise Aliexpress alone for doing blatant copies when countless other builders cashed in on the demand. This all happened because you couldn't buy a BM even if you were on the waiting list or had the cash. If only Doug had gone the Strandberg route it would be a different story.
When BM first came out they were innovative. The whole point of the design was to disprove countless guitar myths and try new approaches that were unheard of in the London/UK guitar scene. Doug had to fight every inch and people didn't know what to make of his designs for years(check any guitar forum from the early 2000s, now its the stable design for countless custom shops. This was at a time when "passive pickups were useless for metal" and a certain UK pickup company had a lot of trouble being taken seriously before approaching Doug to try them out in his builds so of course most people aren't going to understand.
For anyone questioning if BM clones or inspired builds have harmed BM's sales, they go for more new now than they ever have and the second hand market still fetches huge prices. The demand will always be there and so will buyers willing to pay the premium.
When BM first came out they were innovative. The whole point of the design was to disprove countless guitar myths and try new approaches that were unheard of in the London/UK guitar scene. Doug had to fight every inch and people didn't know what to make of his designs for years(check any guitar forum from the early 2000s, now its the stable design for countless custom shops. This was at a time when "passive pickups were useless for metal" and a certain UK pickup company had a lot of trouble being taken seriously before approaching Doug to try them out in his builds so of course most people aren't going to understand.
For anyone questioning if BM clones or inspired builds have harmed BM's sales, they go for more new now than they ever have and the second hand market still fetches huge prices. The demand will always be there and so will buyers willing to pay the premium.
Can't afford it, or not worth the money for you? Cool, you have every right not to buy it. But that doesn't give anyone the right to steal the design. I don't think the BM design/concept is anything particularly interesting, but a lot of other people do. It may not have taken extensive R&D to produce, but if there's enough demand that it's being counterfeited, then apparently it's worth quite a bit.
Sure, but this doesn't actually "build" on anything. "Inferior quality at a cheaper price" is just ripping something off.
Lord Voldemort
SS.org Regular
I couldn't disagree more. People steal designs in every medium, and guitar is incidentally a great example of that. When you create a product, and people like it, it's going to be stolen and copied by your competition. That's just what happens, and it's not really a bad thing honestly. People can't just scoop a headstock and say '' invented this and I'm charging $10k for it and no one else can do it because I thought of it.' Sure, you can inflate your guitars to $10k each and take as long as you want to make it, ultimately some poor sod is going to take you up on that because they want ''the best'. But at the end of the day, your little design is incredibly reproducible, and it's absolutely going to be stolen (and thank goodness for that, hopefully it will teach selfish/lazy luthiers to charge reasonable prices).
The way that these guitars are priced is completely asinine. The way that they conduct business is completely asinine. The way that people defend and actually cater to this business is absolute romanticism and pretentious nonsense at it's finest, and completely asinine. It being taken and reproduced is exclusively a good thing, as far as I'm concerned.
If youre worried about people stealing your design, make sure you make an affordable option for the every man, because if I had a chance to grab a Blackmachine OS made in Korea for $400 or a copy made in China for $300, I'd happily support Blackmachine for being reasonable and considerate and buy their product. They seem more than happy with dealing with the .1% niche audience though, and that's their right. They also seem wholly unconcerned with copycats as far as I can tell, which is probably the right approach as Blackmachine's appeal has nothing to do with design or anything tangible, it's all based around romanticism and exclusivity, and Chinese copies will never scratch those itches.
I don't disagree that it's inevitable, but that doesn't mean it's OK to support either. BM's business model is of their own choosing, whether or not we agree with it. It's ultimately up to him, and what the market dictates. You want to "teach someone a lesson" by being so thirsty for their work that you'll take a counterfeit? That's just further proof that the design must have been an awful good one (or that at least the marketing behind it was).
Sorry, but every man isn't entitled to an affordable option of every for-profit product. Your straw man argument about the cost of prescription drugs has no relevance to this either.
jbcrazy
SS.org Regular
Where the hell can you buy a non B6 blackmachine for 5k?
More like 8-10k plus.
I don't think Fender strat/Les Paul copies is a fair comparison. Even if you had the money, a Blackmachine is hard to come by... one that is sanely price is impossible.
I owned a B2 for a bit. Nice guitar... don't think I'd buy another one for the price I paid unless its suped up to the gills like some of the ones I've seen.
As far as the OP goes... it looks nice.
More like 8-10k plus.
I don't think Fender strat/Les Paul copies is a fair comparison. Even if you had the money, a Blackmachine is hard to come by... one that is sanely price is impossible.
I owned a B2 for a bit. Nice guitar... don't think I'd buy another one for the price I paid unless its suped up to the gills like some of the ones I've seen.
As far as the OP goes... it looks nice.
Lord Voldemort
SS.org Regular
I didn't use a strawman I don't think? I'm not inventing and replying to an argument that someone hasn't made, to be clear that's a strawman right? I didn't bring up prescription drugs, either, it's not really a good analogy as one doesn't need a Blackmachine to live.
I don't know what your point about it 'clearly being so good it was counterfeited' serves either, it's kind of like you're saying since someone made a copy the 10k price tag is obviously warranted. Which is...weird. It being a handsome design doesn't mean that it's suddenly mean that it's suddenly worth 10k. Isn't that a false dichotomy?
But anyways, feel how you feel man.
And yeah OP, beautiful guitar.
My fault - wrong person. But relevant to the fact that not every product has to be available to everyone, as you implied. Healthcare shouldn't be a for-profit venture such as boutique guitars, but that's a whole different argument.
My point is that, why isn't it OK to just not have it if you can't or won't pay the price it actually costs? The price is worth what someone will pay, and if it's $10k, it's $10k.
jbcrazy
SS.org Regular
That's fine but do you really think the above guitar is an actual Blackmachine? It kind of looks like a blackmachine... but its not. Its not advertised as the real deal nor on close inspection would anyone think it's a Blackmachine. (Most people probably don't even know what a Blackmachine is.)
It probably doesn't sound like a Blackmachine. Probably doesn't feel like a Blackmachine. But it kinda looks like one... I don't see the big problem.
Copied guitar designs isn't something new as many have stated. Slash's guitar. Fake Zematis guitars... countless of LP and strat clones. If someone is happy with a copy that's on them. I don't think Doug cares in the long run because he has no interest producing these guitars for the masses. As I stated before... a real Blackmachine is still a real Blackmachine.
A 59 Les Paul is a 59 Les Paul... no matter who tries to clone it. There's replica Dumble amps. Replica everything... Clones... knock offs... etc.
No not everyone deserves or wants a real BM... but its fine.
Doug's bottom line isn't hurt as long as its clearly advertised as not the real deal.
Albake21
Ibanez Nerd
Lol this is fairly accurate. I feel like only us gear nerds only know what Blackmachines are.
Maybe there are two things at play here: Ethics and Legality.
Legally, at least in the USA, it is not illegal to own a counterfeit good, but it is illegal to sell such, with a penalty for doing so 10 years in federal prison, as well as up to $2 million US in fines.
That said, and all points considered, I think the ethics here might actually be a little sticky, either way.
A Blackmachine guitar is a status symbol for guitarists, pure and simple. I'm probably offering way too much opinion here, and it'll certainly be unpopular to say this, but owning a counterfeit status symbol is really just tacky. If I bought a fake Rolex or whatever, and then went around showing it off as a real Rolex, I'm sure people would call me out for being a dip. Going around flaunting it as a fake Rolex, I suppose, would be borderline ethical, since I'm not misrepresenting anything, but, I'd still be showing support for something misrepresented, even if I'm supporting it in a way that makes no effort to hide what it really is...
Legally, at least in the USA, it is not illegal to own a counterfeit good, but it is illegal to sell such, with a penalty for doing so 10 years in federal prison, as well as up to $2 million US in fines.
That said, and all points considered, I think the ethics here might actually be a little sticky, either way.
A Blackmachine guitar is a status symbol for guitarists, pure and simple. I'm probably offering way too much opinion here, and it'll certainly be unpopular to say this, but owning a counterfeit status symbol is really just tacky. If I bought a fake Rolex or whatever, and then went around showing it off as a real Rolex, I'm sure people would call me out for being a dip. Going around flaunting it as a fake Rolex, I suppose, would be borderline ethical, since I'm not misrepresenting anything, but, I'd still be showing support for something misrepresented, even if I'm supporting it in a way that makes no effort to hide what it really is...
Bigfan
sixstringer
If people were claiming these were anything but copies, I'd agree.
I just like the look of these guitars, so I decided to get a cheap wallhanger version of one. Luckily it actually plays and sounds nice as well.
But, then, if the goal was to obtain a "wall-hanger" guitar to display, it really sort of plays to the point that this may be an ethically controvertial decision. Personally, I have no problem with individual people who buy fakemachines or fake Strandbergs or whatever. I don't think it's really that big of a deal. But there is still a greater problem of any statistically significant population of people making such purchases, because it undermines the art form involved in making a guitar.
For example, if I find a painter who I enjoy, and I asked him to purchase an oil painting, and he quotes me $10k. I say "that's too much," and instead make a photocopy of the painting and hang it on my wall instead. Am I in my right to do that? Legally, yeah, well, only maybe just kind of, but it's not ideal, and I know and you know that it's not ideal. Now, if some guy in China or wherever starts peddling photocopies of this guy's artwork over Ali Express for $300-400 per piece, and a bunch of people start buying them, then the artist whose work is parodied will likely have to quit art and find a new career. You know what I mean? Maybe he would have had to have quit anyway, since not many people were buying $10k paintings, but who's to say? (Actually, certainly someone did at some point if he got famous enough to copy in the first place)
If it was a matter of "hey I need a guitar so I can play this smokin' riff idea I have," it'd be one thing, but the idea of a guitar that was very purposely made to look like another and purchased in order to display, in my very bold and unpopular opinion, is just a form of false advertisement.
Well put. I've been thinking about getting an Explorer 1 for a while. But I just got a new car, am moving in a month or so, and I also have custom build that's going to be finished up any time now, so it'd probably be best to wait on a new watch. But never once have I considered a fake or a "real" knockoff. I'll be able to afford it at some point, or I won't. I don't "deserve" a half-price quartz and aluminum version or something, and wouldn't want one. There are plenty of other ways to tell time (just like there are plenty of other guitars to play music with). Even if it's something that is able to skirt the legalities, it's about ethics and just not wanting to own knockoff products.
