NGD - Daemoness Cimmerian

Discussion in 'Standard Guitars' started by frogman81, Oct 23, 2019.

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  1. narad

    narad Progressive metal and politics

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    It does, but you're asked for a second amount right before the build starts. An example might be like:

    650 GBP for queue (then wait 3 years)
    1250 GBP for start of build
    850 GBP towards completion
    200 GBP ship (in my case)
     
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  2. mbardu

    mbardu SS.org Regular

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    So we're basically saying exactly the same thing then :)
    And again, you have both that knowledge and the tolerance for that sort of thing...but I'm sure you can understand that not everyone is in your position and with your prior experience.

    What does "It's just not realistic to think that a build three years from starting might not run into complications from now till then" mean?
    I know we are guitar geeks, frequent posters here, we've seen a lot of shenanigans in the past so we kind of have our own understanding of what an actual build time is going to be.

    But let's take a step back from us. Not everyone follows social media closely, or reads all build updates on SSO, or has past experience of a dozen builds and knows what actually to expect.
    Some people talk with a builder, get quoted 30 months (nobody forced the builder to quote that amount), and that person start to expects 30 months or something at least close. You know I'm not talking about 25 years. But if it's going to be 6 years, it's way more honest to quote "about 5 years, maybe more" than "about 30 months". I find the latter extremely hard to justify except to pocket a bunch of deposit cash.
    If you take that point of view, then you have to understand the frustration.
     
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  3. MaxOfMetal

    MaxOfMetal Likes trem wankery. Super Moderator

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    I mean, you'd have to be somewhat aware of the scene to even find out about Daemoness.

    If you don't know who or what you're sending your money to, can you really claim no fault?

    Besides all that, there seems to still be a misunderstanding of what "quote" and "estimate" mean. They are not synonyms for "promise" or "guarantee".
     
  4. mbardu

    mbardu SS.org Regular

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    Seriously that's the argument? "If you order from this guy and he quotes you 30 months, you should know it's actually going to be 5/6 years, otherwise it's kinda your fault"? Isn't that getting to straight-up victim blaming?
    The kind that we easily accuse other people of doing for way less egregious things when we're talking about other brands which we much more easily like to shit on around here :lol:?

    For instance- I do consider myself pretty well informed compared to the average guitar enthusiast.
    I may have been in a position to look at Daemoness about 18 months ago, when incidentally I was way less active on forums.

    If I had been given a build time of 30 months, I may have assumed "OK i'll add 30/40% to that, it's not too bad", but instead adding 1/200% from what its' looking like nowadays?
    I don't see how that's acceptable at all. At this stage it's not just a missed estimate or a cute "it's a one man operation, let's cut him some slack", it's straight up lying. I get it, the guy is a darling of the forum and has done some pretty insane builds. But there are some serious double standards here.

    Edit: Again that's been discussed in pages before "quote" or "estimate" are not meant to be exact. We all know that. But we're not talking a small difference here. Any reasonable person would see that. Nobody is forcing the builder to give those dates when they already know they're way unrealistic. The only reason to do so is dishonesty at this stage.
     
    Last edited: Jul 22, 2020
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  5. AboutBlank

    AboutBlank SS.org Regular

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    What a wonderful combination of word twisting, insisting on one's point of view and ego this thread is...

    What I can't really understand is the fact that if I can't do my "normal" work (lockdown), I can't really use the time otherwise (vacation), why not work off the seemingly huge backlog of outstanding customer communication?
     
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  6. MaxOfMetal

    MaxOfMetal Likes trem wankery. Super Moderator

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    The heart of the issue is if the estimate was made in good faith.

    Given that at the time it was a three person operation with a good paint guy and no lock downs, I think it was.

    Given the already quoted time frame, it would be unreasonable to assume that there would be no potential for a problem at some point. Three years is a long time.
     
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  7. Vyn

    Vyn Not a Sparkly Vampire

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    I actually have an answer to this (not saying this is what happened, however this has happened to friends running small businesses sadly). People when shutdown hit all of a sudden had their income stop and were in the space of less than 24hrs thrown into completely re-evaluating their whole lives. In the case of two of my friends, they fell heavily into depression and were paralysed by it. I know a lot of people who took it as an oppotunity to do other things, learn new things or get stuck into projects however some people really, really struggled. So I can understand why there wasn't an effort to catch up on the communication side of things.
     
  8. narad

    narad Progressive metal and politics

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    Dude, victim blaming? People seek out Daemoness. Daemoness provides a loose estimate clearly stating that it is only an approximation and could vary. And by choosing to ignore that this estimate is only provided as general guideline, and that Dylan's had his help leave, his shop collapse, and the most serious pandemic in a century are all significant factors that would cause these estimates to be inaccurate, becomes a victim?

    You're not a victim if you knowingly enter into an agreement where the builder tells you the time can vary, and the time varies.

    It's like...running a stop light and getting hit in the intersection. "If only I had known it was it going to happen, I wouldn't have run it! I mean, the stoplight implied that it had the potential to happen, but this time, it really did! How could this have been prevented??"
     
  9. Bettershredthandead

    Bettershredthandead Shredding 'till dead

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    Really just now? Tell me that's because he was still saving up a little here and there to pay it off cause that guitar has been done for quite a while.
     
  10. Flappydoodle

    Flappydoodle SS.org Regular

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    Jeff literally DOES run his business better. A multi million dollar operation which actually makes profit. They also deliver guitars on time and usually to a good standard. Clearly he has good operations to allow relatively affordable custom guitars to be built in the USA.

    I’m going this route right now. Yeah it’s expensive, but it WILL be delivered and there is no chance it looks like OPs guitar.

    Because he doesn’t fucking WANT to. That’s all it boils down to. Doesn’t reply to emails. Didn’t even tell people there’s a new email address. Doesn’t reply to Instagram DMs. Doesn’t even reply to text messages from people who have his mobile number.

    How long would it take to go through a bunch of emails and messages and reply? A couple days at the absolute maximum.

    How long would it take to post a statement to FB/Instagram or their website? 5 minutes.

    Yet he’s producing artist guitars. He’s building one for a Youtuber (who skipped the queue) right now. And he’s making elaborate paintings. He’s doing all sorts of other things - the things that he WANTS to do.

    It’s not that he has zero time for emailing or building. It’s that he gives zero priority to communicating, and he gives not enough priority to reducing the build queue.
     
  11. mbardu

    mbardu SS.org Regular

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    Again, I feel like you are unable to place yourselves in the shoes of anyone who's not yourself. Of course you know those things. Of course you're up to date with exactly what happened to Dylan, and you have your interpretation of quoted times. But you have to realize you are far from the majority.
    I had no idea his help left, his shop collapse etc etc. Is that a prerequisite to be able to order from him? And are you supposed then to not trust his word when he specifically quotes 30 months but instead build your own estimate in your head? Maybe you do that because you keep going into those builds, but you're the exception, not the rule.

    I do get Max's final argument. If the estimate at the time (4/5 years ago) of 30 months was made in good faith, and representative of build times then...fair enough.
    Maybe contacting him today he would give you a realistic estimate of 5/6 years with the information he has now. I have no idea, but that would certainly be the honest thing to do.
    If today, he gives estimates that are wildly underestimated (again, wildly as in more than double the times, not a ~+30% or whatever), then it is pure dishonesty. Maybe dishonesty that doesn't bother you personally- but certainly dishonesty that would and should bother most people.
     
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  12. narad

    narad Progressive metal and politics

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    I'd like some proof of this queue skipping.

    I'm not talking about knowing these things at the time you place the order. The estimates were pretty accurate at the time they were given, but they were given with caveats that they should not be taken as concrete predictions of the future. They're given as numbers that may vary. In this case they varied and we know why they varied. I never implied anything about working out some truer estimate at the time of the deposit based on stalking him on social media, nor relevant to any of the builds I've done. Did he state up front that the time estimates were just a guide and may vary? Yes. Everything else is irrelevant. Any binding expectation the customer built up based on those times is imaginary. It's how English works.
     
    Last edited: Jul 22, 2020
  13. M3CHK1LLA

    M3CHK1LLA angel sword guardian

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    ...and who is said youtuber?
     
  14. MaxOfMetal

    MaxOfMetal Likes trem wankery. Super Moderator

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    Nothing about this concept is exclusive to guitars. It happens with knives, guns, machine parts, autobody work, suits, and pretty much anything.

    Whenever you pay for an item or service to be built/performed by a single person you are at the mercy of whatever life has in store for that person.

    The longer that time frame the bigger the risk of something happening.
     
  15. mbardu

    mbardu SS.org Regular

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    Where did I say it was exclusive to guitars? I 100% agree with what you say here.
    Anything custom, and it's always reasonable to build in some leeway in your expectations for unforeseen circumstances.
    There is however a spectrum from "acceptable small delay" to "egregiously long delay" to "never receiving your stuff".
    And any respectable consumer protection law would find that being over twice as long is not really on the side of "acceptable small delay".
    Especially if the large delay is not an exception, but becomes business as usual. Same thing, all the arguments about caveat emptors, or "estimate is not a quote" or "an email is not a contract" or "it's vague and may vary" would not be receivable if there were to actually be any legal proceeding (again, unlikely and undesirable outcome, of course).
    There are consumer protections in place- otherwise it would be too easy for people to just take non-refundable deposits and take advantage with no consequences.
     
    Last edited: Jul 22, 2020
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  16. MaxOfMetal

    MaxOfMetal Likes trem wankery. Super Moderator

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    Tell that to the guys screwed by Roter, Brutalizer, Emperion, Siggery, Bernie Rico Jr., Saber, Vik, RAN, and the dozens of others who have gotten away scot-free.

    Consumer protection laws are there for a reason, but they're not perfect, and we've seen how limited they can be first hand.
     
  17. narad

    narad Progressive metal and politics

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    Yea, like Vik's in California/Texas now back to building guitars and there's still like half a dozen guys that he took money from and just ignores on social media. And the deposits are bigger than Daemoness ones. And that's been going on for like 6+ years.
     
  18. mbardu

    mbardu SS.org Regular

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    Oh for sure, consumer protection is not going to solve everything. And it's often complicated by international borders, as well as by the fact that bankrupt companies or disappeared individuals are hard to squeeze money from. But the spirit of the laws is there for a reason. Just because you can get away with something doesn't make it right.

    Again- I would leave the benefit of the doubt here, since I have not actually personally asked recently to see whether build times would be quoted at a realistic 5/6 years. Maybe they are. But if they're anything less, and even if he gets away with it, then it doesn't make it any less unethical in my book.
     
  19. mbardu

    mbardu SS.org Regular

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    Sure but if we're down to the "but those guys did it first or worst" as the line of argument, then that doesn't shine great light on what you're defending either.
     
  20. narad

    narad Progressive metal and politics

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    I'm not defending the behavior. I'm saying it's hard to get your money back, even when there is legitimate grievance. It really seems like every time I'm quoted you're putting this weird twist on everything.
     
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