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Discussion in 'Gear & Equipment' started by Dineley, Dec 17, 2020.
I was thinking about something less intrusive. Like a volume pedal or EQ I’m the loop. Lol
Did I say anything about real musicians?
Agreed, pros are looking at performance... many who get hung up on gear look at the potentials that specs present over the actual performance of the gear. Consistent and durable performance along it cost of transporting it is a very pro way of looking at things. Whatever works night after night and nets a profit or at least should net a profit
The bulk of my years of practice were through a line 6 spider II. Not that I’m saying that is good modeling, just that I went from that to a helix, then a Kemper, and now an FM3.
At no point have I ever really considered buying a “real” amp. Even for all my posts about just liking 5150 variants.
I didn’t spend too too much time tweaking the Helix before flipping it for the Kemper, and I haven’t spent hours downloading new profiles on the Kemper. But I’m liking the FM3 the most through both speakers and monitors. And that’s versus the Kemper through a 2x12 with cab sim turned off.
Oh snap you just reminded me there’s bass amps in the FM3. Now I need a bass!
Sorry, you said "people who actually play" and the question still stands if you make that substitution.
It's semantics, but you're making some differentiation between people who play guitar and people who only care about gear or whatever.
Here’s the thing about modelers. For a consumer, they don’t actually model any of the things we want them to.
Scenario 1 - Playing through a real amp and cab:
Modelers don’t do this—at least not on their own. Many people listen to a modeler through headphones or monitors. If that’s the case you’re listening to what and amp might sound like going into a well mic’d up cab if you’re in a recording studio recording a part in the control room. This would be vastly different than what you get playing an amp in the room. When there’s mention of how a modeler feels, it’s a clear indication that the person is coming from the amp-in-the-room perspective. They should expect compromises.
Scenario 2 - Hunting for a tone off a recording:
A lot of people hear a tones they love on recordings. They may want a modeler to reproduce those tones but modelers don’t actually do that either. There is so much post production work on studio recordings that affects a guitar tone by the time you listen to it. For most users, modelers aren’t going to reproduce that either. Now, I’d say they probably can reproduce that post production tone. For example the Fractal products (as an example because that’s where most of my experience is) have a lot of the types tools a producer might use. Things like compressors, various forms of EQ, mixers, etc. but most consumers won’t use those much.
If your goal is the tone you get from plugging into a real amp, the best solution is to get a real amp. Another solution is to plug a modeler into an amp FX return but you should expect to be making some compromises. Those compromises might be small or insignificant, but they should be expected.
If your goal is a recorded tone and you’re not somewhat knowledgeable about music production, or you unwilling to put in that type of work, then hopefully either a stock or downloaded preset will suit. If not you should again be expecting to make some compromises.
Now with all that said if you can accept that playing through an amp in a room, listening to a great tone on a record, and playing through a modeler are all different experiences with their own unique qualities then a modeler may suit you very well.
It's not semantics.
There are people who just play and the gear is a means to an end..not the focal point. Those people don't get constant gas because their priority is playing.
Then you have people who like gear or are convinced that buying the newest thing will improve their playing. Practice improves playing, not new gear.
To deadpool's point, how many people realize how much the bass and drums play a part in guitar tones that they love?
I know fractal has parameters to get the "amp in the room" sound, i dont know if kemper and line6 do as well.
If you want amp in the room sound stop using closed mic'ed IRs, FFS.
On the other end stop expecting mic'ed sounds in the room. That's not how this works...that's not how any of this works.
Since graduating high school in 2007 I've NEVER been in a situation where a high quality, loud, amp in the room is a reasonable option. College dorms, and then smallish apartments have been my life for the past decade +. So, during much of that time I made do with a GSP 1101, which isn't exactly an AxeFX but you can get a LOT of different usable tones with it. AND you have all the effects you could want at your disposal. The stock patches were garbage, but as with most modeling gear if you're willing to mess with it you will get good tones. In fact, to even have something close you'd need to spend lots of money on gear compared to a single modeling unit.
Now, with a Helix it's the same situation but overall better UX and tones.
If you want "amp in the room" sounds, then get yourself a power engine 60 or something to plug it into, but part of the appeal for me is to play it through monitors, be able to control the volume and still get great sounding tones, and to play with the patches. Sure, IRs through an FRFR setup isn't the same as an amp in the room but I find both setups just as enjoyable in different ways and a piece of gear like a Helix is cheaper than a comparably good sounding rig with a traditional amp and a bunch of effects, and is more flexible in terms of volume, tones, and ability to take your exact same patches live when/if you do that.
I agree to a certain extent. If you have shitty sounding gear then you tend not to want to play much.
That's more of a necessary need, which is my point. Wanting something you actually need to function is different from GAS.
To me (a consumer) the current modelers do everything I want and then some, but maybe I don't understand your point correctly? Sounds incredible through a good SS power section and you fav cab. Just as good as the real thing according to my tests. You can mount both the FM3 and and PS170 on a backpack board if you want to gig. I can also plug direct to front with XLR . Need to record, perfect too in this scenario with all the great IR onboard. Girlfriend want some peace at night, no problem, cab sim activated with headphones.
At this point I see no point going back to real amps. Not that I dislike them, I love good amps, but the modelers are just so much more practical for everything I do. If at some point if I become a world tour kind of player (highly unlikely lol) and paid like one, then maybe I'll get a huge amp collection. Until then I'm sold to modelers.
You’re actually reinforcing my point.
That point waa that they aren’t exactly modeling the things many (note, I was careful not to say “all”) people are targeting. They’re not modeling amp in the room and they’re not modeling recorded tones. Not exactly.
The other parent of the point was that as long as you realize and accept that, you can fully enjoy the tones and feel you get anyway. Modelers should be considered good (or not) on their own merit. The question shouldn’t be “does it sound like (whatever)”. It should be, “does it sound good.” And in many cases, as you’ve stated, the answer is YES.
I completely agree that the FM3 sounds phenomenal through an amp and cab. Then you’re really getting an amp in the room sound.
I used to own a lot of really nice high gain amps.
Then, in 2012, I bought an Axe-Fx II. I was mostly expecting it to be a recording solution, and still use my Diezel VH4 live.
But the Axe-fx was so good, and so easy to use/setup live, that I quickly sold my Diezel.
In 2016. I was burned out with music and quit. Sold everything.
In 2018. The itch returned. I found a nice deal on a splawn nitro and bought my first tube amp in 6 years.
It was bulky, it didnt record well in my tiny home studio, it was a pain to transport to rehearsal and gigs, it had to be atupid loud to souns good.
I couldnt wait to get rid of it. A couple of months later, I ended up selling the Splawn and bought a Kemper floor model. Finally a had a unit that sounded good while also being easy to record with, and that I can carry in one hand when going to rehearsal/gigs.
I'm never going back to amps.
I know some are nostalgic towards them, and they do sound killer, but to me they are a dying technology. They are just not versatile and practical enough to compete with modellers.
Not only are modellers imo the superior choice, we are starting to see prices go down due to more competion and cheaper component prices, so in a few years they could potentially also be far cheaper than a tube setup.
I'd rather mod it than adding more pedals to my board . That would mean a bigger board, which means more space to fill (And I don't really want to got that route).
Also, if people want a more "amp in the room" sound from their modeler using headphones, they can find an IR using a room mic rather than closed mic. Not the same, but works well enough to mimic that sound.
Food for thought:
"If you want the in the room sound, run Farfield IRs in parallel."
I've always used a power amp and cab with modeling, so it's just flavors. Most people running direct or FRFR don't realize they need to cut everything over what, 11k? The high freq that take your head off. Then they say it sounds harsh and plasticy, give up and go back to analog.