Maybe too early in the game, comparing the GARGOYLE to Fortin's MESHUGGAH sig

Discussion in 'Gear & Equipment' started by oniduder, May 15, 2019.

  1. oniduder

    oniduder HONKEY DONKEY

    Messages:
    2,356
    Likes Received:
    478
    Joined:
    May 9, 2010
    Location:
    the metro, sc
    i doubt it, but i would like to know if anybody's A) has the limited run meshuggah (cough cough, there's only 100 or somehting, and a few have been sold (literally up to 7?)) and been able to A/B it with the gargoyle, owww ahhh, good luck gear fucks

    seriously though, any real real difference, i know some peeps in here build clones and would say there almost couldn't be that big a difference

    so words below this post would be awesome sauce!
     
  2. Taylor2

    Taylor2 Do you even lift

    Messages:
    1,261
    Likes Received:
    311
    Joined:
    Feb 23, 2009
    Location:
    Calgary
    There's a post in here somewhere about the Gargoyle and according to FourT6and2 (I think that's his name), it has some minor design changes from the Meshuggah. That said, the original Meshuggah design is based off of the modded JCM circuit, and so overall it's probably going to be close, but not exact. But, given the price and the quality of the Ceriatone stuff, you can't really go wrong.
     
  3. oniduder

    oniduder HONKEY DONKEY

    Messages:
    2,356
    Likes Received:
    478
    Joined:
    May 9, 2010
    Location:
    the metro, sc
    i believe that was the jist of it, and i do remember either talking directly with that handle or someone else who builds clones himself

    thanks, this thread is probably a bit if not completely unnecessary

    thanks nonetheless

    it's interesting to think that what meshuggah needed in their tone was some modded marshall sound, that's what they've truly been after over the course of their 30 some odd career, i call who gives a fuck almost anything would probably work with the right boost

    seriously a boost can make a heaping dogshit crate sound like the brootz or whatever the kids are saying these days
     
  4. Hollowway

    Hollowway Extended Ranger

    Messages:
    13,248
    Likes Received:
    5,005
    Joined:
    Dec 28, 2008
    Location:
    California
    Are they using Fortin boosts in front of their sig amps? I should check out Thorendal’s signal chain. Fortin has so many boosts I’m not sure what is actually being used by Meshuggah now that they have the Meshuggah amp.
     
  5. StevenC

    StevenC SS.org Regular

    Messages:
    3,160
    Likes Received:
    1,665
    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2012
    Location:
    Northern Ireland
    Meshuggah are boosting their amps with the 33 most of the time live.
     
  6. cardinal

    cardinal F# Dive Bomber

    Messages:
    5,211
    Likes Received:
    2,514
    Joined:
    Mar 6, 2007
    Location:
    Northern Virginia
    It's been said that the Gargoyle is very similar to the Chupacabra. I think on Rig-Talk, @FourT6and2 has even identified the specific component changes between the amps:

    1. Change first two cathode resistors to 2K7
    2. Swap the first two coupling caps around
    3. Lower first plate resistor to 330K... or a 100K bypassed with 330pF in series with 220K
    4. Revert the rest of the circuit back to STOCK Marshall specs (tone stack, PI, NFB, remove depth control, add the missing 10K B+ dropper, etc.)
    5. Change the "feel" push/pull control's resistor to 68K and change the V1b input grid resistor to 68K

    So maybe search out reviews/opinions on the Chupacabra 50?
     
  7. USMarine75

    USMarine75 Plays Authentic ® Contributor

    Messages:
    4,665
    Likes Received:
    2,621
    Joined:
    Feb 24, 2010
    Location:
    Middle East
    So my question is... which sounds better? I'm a big believer that anything Nik does is golden.
     
  8. FourT6and2

    FourT6and2 SS.org Regular

    Messages:
    500
    Likes Received:
    387
    Joined:
    Feb 12, 2014
    Location:
    CA
    Gargoyle is based off a schematic/layout I created after owning a Meshuggah and being disappointed with it, so I built my own version. Someone sent that schematic to Ceriatone and now they're offering a clone of my clone of a clone of a previous clone of a mod that's been around for 40 years that was originally created by Mark Cameron after finishing a bunch of half-built amps by Jose Arredondo after he died. Make sense lol?

    As far as Gargoyle vs Meshuggah goes... they won't sound the same because Ceriatone made some strange changes. Here is the one I built, which is similar to the Meshuggah, Atomica, Cameron Jose, and many others. Except I added in a 6-position clipping switch, a depth control, and made some changes to the NFB circuit. I wasn't trying to copy the Meshuggah sound—I just tailored it to my own personal tastes. Hell, I built this circuit years ago before the Meshuggah even existed (and so have a bunch of other people all over the world). The specific component values and voicing changes to a stock JCM800 have been on the internet for decades.

    Schematic: https://images-wixmp-ed30a86b8c4ca8...q6kk-08933baf-9d55-4139-9edc-e7c021cf795d.jpg

     
    Last edited: May 17, 2019
  9. sakeido

    sakeido Contributor

    Messages:
    6,914
    Likes Received:
    2,107
    Joined:
    Jul 24, 2006
    Location:
    Calgary AB
    how hard is it to build an amp if you've never done it before? that sounds killer
     
  10. Werecow

    Werecow SS.org Regular

    Messages:
    214
    Likes Received:
    209
    Joined:
    Jan 9, 2014
    Location:
    UK
    From what i hear, it can be difficult to not even kill yourself doing it :lol:
     
  11. FourT6and2

    FourT6and2 SS.org Regular

    Messages:
    500
    Likes Received:
    387
    Joined:
    Feb 12, 2014
    Location:
    CA
    It's not hard if you're smart and have patience and you're willing to put in the time to learn and experiment. Learn how to solder. Learn how to strip wire properly. Learn about proper lead dress and proper grounding schemes, etc.

    I started with a Fender Champ kit. Super simple. Then did a Super Lead. Then an SLO clone. Then a bunch of others from there. Read a lot. Lots of helpful info on the net and in books.
     
  12. Bearitone

    Bearitone SS.org Regular

    Messages:
    3,884
    Likes Received:
    1,256
    Joined:
    Feb 20, 2013
    Location:
    Los Angeles, CA
    Sort of OT but, what was the Fortin Satan based on?
     
  13. mnemonic

    mnemonic Custom User Title

    Messages:
    5,394
    Likes Received:
    1,848
    Joined:
    Sep 22, 2006
    Location:
    Chester, UK
    Fortin NATAS.

    I haven’t seen a scheme for the NATAS, but speculation I’ve read from people who are into this kinda stuff was that it shares elements with the Elan Metalhead modded Marshall’s. Possibly with some circuitry out of a Larry amp that I can’t remember the name of (the girth and grind controls).
     
  14. sakeido

    sakeido Contributor

    Messages:
    6,914
    Likes Received:
    2,107
    Joined:
    Jul 24, 2006
    Location:
    Calgary AB
    I rock climb just fine... things can be dangerous, you just gotta make sure you're following all the steps to maintain your safety

    I actually got onto the slo clone forum based on one of your past posts so I've been building up some knowledge. I wired a bunch of stuff in my car so I'm fairly certain I can handle it, just wasn't sure if there skills unique to amp building I haven't picked up yet
     
    Werecow likes this.
  15. FourT6and2

    FourT6and2 SS.org Regular

    Messages:
    500
    Likes Received:
    387
    Joined:
    Feb 12, 2014
    Location:
    CA
    Just jump in and start building something :)
    Only real skills you need outside of circuit knowledge is knowing how to solder and work with wire properly.

    If you can lead a 5.11 and build a suitable anchor without killing yourself I'm sure you can manage a guitar amp just fine lol ;)
     
    sakeido likes this.
  16. HeHasTheJazzHands

    HeHasTheJazzHands greg rulz ok

    Messages:
    24,584
    Likes Received:
    6,543
    Joined:
    Jun 18, 2011
    Location:
    Louisiana
    Punch and Bite.

    Which is also how Jon Schaffer got his tight AF sounds, since the Satan's Girth/Grinds are pretty much the Larry Dino Punch/Bite controls. Mike Fortin owns a Larry Dino IIRC.
     
  17. Taylor2

    Taylor2 Do you even lift

    Messages:
    1,261
    Likes Received:
    311
    Joined:
    Feb 23, 2009
    Location:
    Calgary
    If I can ask, what didn't you like about the Meshuggah? I love the Marshall sound, but also play 7 strings tuned to drop Z, so any anecdotes on these modded JCM's is appreciated.
    What do you feel is strange about the Gargoyle?
     
  18. FourT6and2

    FourT6and2 SS.org Regular

    Messages:
    500
    Likes Received:
    387
    Joined:
    Feb 12, 2014
    Location:
    CA
    The Meshuggah is "designed" (and I use that word loosely) to only sound good if you down-tune with a seven+ string guitar and run a boost in front. There is zero low-end in this amp. No depth control. Nothing to push the bass at all. And it's incredibly bright, harsh, and shrill. That's why it sounds good when you play an 8 string or something like that's tuned way down and run a boost pedal. It remains tight and bright to cut through a mix. But if you play a standard six-string or just drop D or something similar and without a boost pedal, it just doesn't sound good. It works for Meshuggah because that's how they seemingly run their rig. And that makes sense. Just doesn't work for me since I play in standard/drop d and don't use boost pedals.

    There are a few reasons why: 1) NFB is 100K/4ohm tap + a 4K7 PI tail resistor into a 5K presence pot with .1 cap. It's like a combination of the two different presence setups that Marshall has used. Typically you'd only use the 4K7 resistor with a 25K pot and the presence cap wired the other way around. But Fortin is using it with the 5K pot for some reason. And with 100K/4ohm NFB and no depth control, it's a little harsh. The amp could also use an additional cap bypassing the 68K resistor to ground on the voltage divider on Gain 1 to kill a bit of fizz. But that's inconsequential.

    Secondly, my specific Meshuggah amp didn't work properly. The EQ was messed up (behaved strangely) and the power tubes blew after about 2 hours of use. The bias kept drifting as well. I could have fixed it myself but since it was a new amp I sent it back to Fortin for repair. He pressured me to accept a refund instead of fixing it. So I did. And then I just built my own with a few changes to suit my preferences. Like a depth control, a change to the NFB circuit, and a few other tweaks here and there.

    The Ceriatone version has different transformer specs I'm sure. Plus a few additions like "compliance" resistors on the clipping diodes to shelve their effect a bit and make the amp less aggressive. He has also implemented the elevated heaters incorrectly (at least in the layout he sent me) and swapped the first two coupling caps around, which will drastically change the sound of the amp.


    By contrast, the Hiwatt Super-Hi 50 that Fortin worked on sounds great to me. It's more my style.
     
    Last edited: May 31, 2019
  19. MASS DEFECT

    MASS DEFECT SS.ORG Infiltrator

    Messages:
    1,102
    Likes Received:
    635
    Joined:
    Jul 28, 2008
    Location:
    San Francisco, California
    This right here (and that other amp demo in Facebook) confirms what I have been hearing. The Mesh is just bright for anything above C#. The demo on Facebook I think he was tuned to D standard and it was really harsh and grating. But with 8 strings, it sounds super clear and badass.

    Killed my GAS, since like you, I use six strings and the lowest I tune is C#.
     
  20. FourT6and2

    FourT6and2 SS.org Regular

    Messages:
    500
    Likes Received:
    387
    Joined:
    Feb 12, 2014
    Location:
    CA
    It's a simple fix. Remove the 4K7 PI tail resistor. Change NFB to 47K/8ohm tap (or whatever you want to taste). Add a depth control (1M pot + 2200pF cap). Then it will sound good for people who play six-string guitars or don't drop tune super low.
     
    MASS DEFECT likes this.

Share This Page

  1. This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register.
    By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our use of cookies.