Master Of Puppets alternative picked

Discussion in 'Beginners/FAQ' started by OmegaSlayer, May 20, 2016.

  1. OmegaSlayer

    OmegaSlayer SS.org Regular

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    This is clearly an argumentative thread, I don't want to flame the forums, just trying to talk about it.

    Loads of times I read this "Master Of Puppets must be downpicked or your doing it wrong DUUUUUUUUUUUUUDE".
    I always find this very amusing.
    I can absolutely play MOP all downpicked but I don't like how it sounds, I like more the dynamics of having it alternate picked and paying attention to accents.
    I found it tighter and...simply put I like it MOAR.

    Obviously this is just an example, the first one that comes to mind, because it's famous, but it can be applied to many songs.
    But it's part of a "concept" that clearly draws a line, or more than one converging into the same point.

    1- Do you feel you have to be accurate to the source?

    2- Do you feel that since many can't play it with all downstrokes, you're somewhat better than them?

    3- Or do you feel that first of all when you play, you have to sound how YOU like despite of the source?

    My personal take for coming up with this thread is option 3 because

    1- I might like a song, its structure and progression, but not like how it's executed or how it sounds.
    I change a lot of stuff when I play, I hate the wah-wah, so I'd rather make my life a nightmare and use combinations of hard vibratos, pinch harmonics and whammy to simulate the wah rather than use the real wah-wah...I play the riff of Megadeth's "Symphony Of Destruction" doubling the 1-3-1 on the E string and playing it 1-1-3-3-1...and loads of other stuff I change, like picking legatos or make legato instead of picking, or just mix both, odd strings legato, the even ones picked, or viceversa because it's how I have fun.

    2- I might actually fall into this :rolleyes:, as every lead guitarist is actually an egomaniac prick, but yeah, there are times when you don't need to show off, at least show off to tell someone else he's wrong...bah...not worth it and not egomaniac enough :lol:

    So...I really want to hear Sevenstring's fellow forumers opinion about where they stand and where they have fun.

    Cheers and have a lovely day :agreed:
     
  2. AliceLG

    AliceLG \m/^_^\m/

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    I might be wrong here, but as far as I can remember, doesn't Kirk play "the riff" alternate?

    Regarding your questions:

    1.- No, unless I'm auditioning for the band (wishful thinking).

    2.- I definitely do :lol:

    3.- Yes, unless I'm auditioning for the band (again, wishful thinking).
     
  3. Andromalia

    Andromalia Pardon my french

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    Well, the case is pretty clearcut for me:

    -Alternate picking doesn't sound the same
    -"Noobs" play alternate picking because, well, that level of downpicking requires some training and hard work.

    ->Playing it with alternate picking will be seen as "cheating", which will lessen the crowd experience unless you showed beforehand you can do it but choose not to.

    ie, the impact will be different whether the audience thinks of it as an artistic choice ot a technical limitation from the player.

    The second side of the coin is, peeople usually take modifications to iconic songs pretty badly unless you're very talented. It's like EVH covers without tapping, really.
     
  4. OmegaSlayer

    OmegaSlayer SS.org Regular

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    That's sure without a doubt, it's a totally different dynamic, thus vibe/mood.
    Downpicking is some sort of raw, but alternate is tighter.
    Which is better? It's clearly personal taste, but I'll come back to this discussion later on.

    This is fun and amusing, but it's the terrible reality of how the average guitarists minds work.
    Because if you see Paul Gilbert playing today, without knowing what he did with Racer-X you can argue that he can't sweep for the sake of God, or that Guthrie Govan can't sweep and the "silly guy" has to resort to tapped arpeggios.
    Or that Petrucci is lame at sweep because he rarely use it.
    A player's style is not always a come-around for technical gaps, but sometime a deliberate choice.

    Which is someway incredible and insulting at the same time.
    If I would listen to someone playing Eruption with ONE hand, without tapping, I would be more amazed than see the 1 millionth guy who can play the tapping part.
    Seeing someone play the solo of He-Man Woman Hater without tapping would blow my mind.
    So...at the end...the talented musician should kneel down to the judgement of uneducated and less talented musicians? Quite crazy...but things actually go this exact way, and it's a shame.
    It's also a shame because it undirectly forces the player/artist to do something he doesn't like, and funnels his creativity, just to show that he can actually do certain things, JUST to avoid doing them which again is even more crazy.

    I'm not arguing that you're wrong Andromalia, the opposite actually, and underlining how crazy the situation is and how fast we can judge someone just nitpicking...maybe just because it's good for our ego...dunno...
     
  5. Andrew May

    Andrew May SS.org Regular

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    Meh, 99% of people wouldn't hear a difference anyway.
     
  6. OmegaSlayer

    OmegaSlayer SS.org Regular

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    I don't agree.
    I play it in alternate because there is indeed a difference and I like how it sounds in alternate more (same thing for Tornado Of Souls anyway).
    Actually the downpicking only gives the string a bit more resonance and time to ring, something that is in the matter of splitting seconds, but it's clearly there.
    People will indeed hear it.

    Analyzing Master Of Puppets in detail, it's 210 bpm.
    And it's mostly played in 1/8 notes.
    It's a strange math that shouldn't be done and doesn't apply to music because of dynamics, but it's like playing 1/16 notes at 105 bpm, which doesn't sound "impossible" at all and so it doesn't give enough reasons to brag about, honestly.
     
  7. AliceLG

    AliceLG \m/^_^\m/

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    True.

    Bragging rights should come when you can play the intro to Yesterday Don't Mean .... with straight downpicking, as Dimebag did.
     
  8. raytsh

    raytsh Contributor

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    I guess I would not hear the difference most of the times. But for me personally, I like to play it downpicked. It certainly feels different, even if it does not sound different for all listeners. It feels more raw, more angry, I like that.
     
  9. Spectre 1

    Spectre 1 SS.org Regular

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    I will never let go of that young boy who idolized Hetfield. And playing it like him just feels so damn good.
     
  10. possumkiller

    possumkiller Square Dance Caller

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    Damn... Nineteen years of playing guitar and I'm still a noob.
     
  11. Mathemagician

    Mathemagician SS.org Regular

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    Even when I started playing I remember reading that Hetfield played it all down-picked and I remember 14 year old me thinking "that's stupid".

    I mean, everyone has their own style/preference and that's ok. Mine is "I am not going to waste my time down-picking something I can play perfectly alternate picked just to impress a bunch of dudes." And it's worked out great for me. Given that I'm good at the things I actually care about.

    Props to people who can straight down-pick things like that, it is a skill.

    But I would absolutely roll my eyes if someone tried to tell me I was "cheating". Some people aren't good at much but down-picking and feel threatened if someone plays the same song and doesn't bother to down-pick it is all.
     
  12. Rollandbeast

    Rollandbeast SS.org Regular

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    To me playing it downpicked sounds better and feels more satisfying , also I dont understand when you say more dynamics/accents when alternate picking? I can put as much dynamics/accents if not more when downpicking
     
  13. jkoch

    jkoch SS.org Regular

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    What you need to understand is that it's not about dynamics, accents, or sounding tighter. Playing MOP with all downstrokes is a rite of passage for metal guitarists. It is THE WAY that has been passed down to you by your elders. If you deviate from the rules, you'll be mocked and scorned.
     
  14. Big Dave

    Big Dave Methestaphelese Jr.

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    35 years in and I have found if you dont do endless tasteless sweeps non stop your no good..who knew? I thought you put them in a musical context but you live and you learn.:yesway:
     
  15. CaptainD00M

    CaptainD00M Lungsman

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    Hmm this is a really cool topic Omega and I think a good platform for asking some interesting questions.

    When I learnt MOP it was all Down Picking, because that was what I was good at then. Now IIRC (its been a couple years since I played that riff) I can do it either way. Do I feel better than others because I can down pick it, no, because sure as hell you can probably do something that I can't do on guitar.

    In relation to the discrete points you made:

    1. I think there is a benefit in learning something as strictly to the source on a technical level, and to give you more tools to use down the line. For example when re-learning La Grange recently I made a point to hybrid pick the riff because thats how Billy does it so if I chose to I could as close as I can, replicate that sound.

    But ultimately when I do then play it I will inevitably end up in the 3rd category because its a natural thing, and I think ultimately when you cover stuff it will probably be a better cover if you play it like its your song.

    Taking the La Grange example again, we were at band practice and a couple guys from the other practice room to have a beer and jam. A couple of them were big ZZ Top fans so we decided to jam on La Grange partway through we stopped and one of the guys said 'man you're doing some cool stuff there, what if we slowed it down and played it like a stoner song?' so we did.

    I opted to do full power chords with a lot of vibrato and not hybrid pick. It was still La Grange but sounded more like Weed Eater plays La Grange or something, and it was great. We're now seriously thinking of forming a one off Stoner ZZ Top tribute band because other guys came by and were like 'that was cool'.

    So 1 has its place for technique, but 3 ultimately sounding like you is the goal most of us aspire for so do that.
     
  16. OmegaSlayer

    OmegaSlayer SS.org Regular

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    I'm mindblown...I managed to have you post for the first time here on SS.org even if you registered in 2009.
    That's something I will really brag about for eternity :lol:

    Anyway, taking your fun post in some other direction, why don't the same people that say that MOP must be downpicked, outrage to everyone that plays Marty Friedman solos without using their hand in that insane unhealthy position?
    Because that's the way they're supposed to be played...:scratch: :rolleyes:
     
  17. Mathemagician

    Mathemagician SS.org Regular

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    Oh, I assumed that post was sarcasm...
     
  18. OmegaSlayer

    OmegaSlayer SS.org Regular

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    Undoubtely so :)
    And a fun one.

    Still, it made me think, which is undoubtely bad and not fun :lol:
     
  19. DarthV

    DarthV SS.org Regular

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    I was big into alternate picking when I first started learning Metallica in the 80s, so that's how I played all their stuff. There were no forums, no youtube and well no internet back then, so I never even thought about doing it any different.

    Now? I try to downpick as much as I can. Why? Feels much more aggressive. Not old enough to need hormone replacement, but I'd imagine trying to emulate Het's picking technique would be a good alternative :hbang::shred:
     
  20. possumkiller

    possumkiller Square Dance Caller

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    Metallica caused me to spend a summer doing lawn work to buy my first guitar which was a POS 80s flying v copy from a pawn shop. I was 14. I learned how to play Seek and Destroy upside down (had the tabs in a Guitar World but hadn't heard Kill 'em All yet) chugging on the high e until I found out I learned to read tabs upside down. I got a tape to learn to play "in the style of" Metallica by Doug Marks I think his name was. As soon as he said Hetfield used all downstrokes I played nothing but downstrokes from then until the time I finally figured out Metallica weren't going to make anymore good albums and moved on to heavier metals. I still play old Metallica songs for friends and family when they request. So far nobody has noticed or given a ....e that I alternate pick.
     

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