Kiesel --- Never Again!

Discussion in 'Standard Guitars' started by MetalHead40, Mar 7, 2017.

  1. jco5055

    jco5055 SS.org Regular

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    The difference is that when other companies have these issues,which are frankly inevitable for companies of Kiesel's size and by itself aren't a knock on the company overall, you can return them/exchange them (in the case of the Ibanez/Jacksons/ESPs etc of this world who only sell via dealers/guitar center etc) with no issue or harrassment.
     
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  2. narad

    narad Progressive metal and politics

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    If that's the logic, save the Kiesel money and get a used prestige. Good enough for Paul Gilbert.


    *not that I disagree that we could get by with much less expensive instruments than we/I buy.
     
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  3. mbardu

    mbardu SS.org Regular

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    I've been harassed way more by D-bags when trying to return a MusicMan in person at Guitarcenter, or had more issues trying to ship back a PRS to an online store that shall remain unnamed (just know it the words "Music" and "Live" in the name) than successfully returning probably around 10 or so Carvin or Kiesel guitars (built to my specs) with literally 0 hassle from them.
     
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  4. Spaced Out Ace

    Spaced Out Ace 0 0 1 0 0 6 5 0 3\

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    What goofy mental gymnastics some must go through to make their arguments...
     
  5. AxRookie

    AxRookie Aspiring Expert

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    That's not my logic, my point was I don't judge an entire line of guitars because I've seen a dozen videos of broken headstocks!
     
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  6. xzacx

    xzacx SS.org Regular

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    We’ve really seen it all now—the return of 10 different guitars being used as a defense of Kiesel. Even if you ordered 100 of them, that seems...not ideal, and not a company I would ride so hard for.
     
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  7. AxRookie

    AxRookie Aspiring Expert

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    Indeed, no argument there...
     
  8. AxRookie

    AxRookie Aspiring Expert

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    You must think no other brand of guitars are ever returned or people are unhappy with one???
     
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  9. AxRookie

    AxRookie Aspiring Expert

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    That's because all those guitar are made the same...

    When my Kiesel was built for ME I had to pick from a lot of options which is something you don't get with all those others, those all are hanging on a wall somewhere and you chose from them...
     
  10. mbardu

    mbardu SS.org Regular

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    You can twist everything the way you want to if you're not trying to discuss in good faith.

    Nothing was wrong with any of the guitars I returned. The moss green CT7 was not comfortable for me to play standing up but at least i got to try it to figure that out, the v7 multiscale i returned because after a misunderstanding they finished the guitar in aquaburst instead of aqua, the red contour 66 I decided to get a fixed bridge and another color (my pink one) instead, the gold top CT i returned because the wait for the guitar was so long (it was the first they built with the new piezo and we didn't know how long it would take to get it right) that i had just moved on to other things etc etc etc. All of them were well built and played well. A few of them i know for a fact are adored by their new owners.

    The fact i could try those guitars at my specs with zero risk and return them no questions asked is a pretty strong argument in my book. Who else allows you to do that? How is that a bad thing?

    If you're trying to sneakily find some sort of "gotcha" as in "haha look at that dude, he got 10 guitars with issues out of 100", then certainly not. As mentioned before, out of 100+ (most of all I got second hand, by far), I only had one I would even qualify as "problematic" (but again could have been fixed easily) and maybe a few (maybe 4/5) that were good, but not great (didn't sound great, had slight finish issues etc), and none of those were among the guitars I ordered new.

    Edit: actually that's not true now that I think about it. One of those guitars that "didn't sound great" was actually my Blue Vader 6 that I did order to my specs. It came with one of the first batch of Lithium pickups and I hated them. I wanted to return for a refund, but they offered to replace them with M22s instead, free of charge, and that solved the problem. Talk about terrible customer service.
     
    Last edited: May 29, 2020
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  11. AxRookie

    AxRookie Aspiring Expert

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  12. iamaom

    iamaom SS.org Regular

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    I agree with the fender and gibson joints, but AANJ is 99% as good a neck-thru.
     
  13. mbardu

    mbardu SS.org Regular

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    True- plus that rosewood PRS neck is always a treat to play.
    If only they sounded as good as they look and feel...
     
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  14. AxRookie

    AxRookie Aspiring Expert

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    I don't doubt that it is but they don't quite look as good, to me, that is... not that there is anything wrong with that!
     
  15. narad

    narad Progressive metal and politics

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    I mean, fine? It's your money. Like half my guitars have better heels than this, and half have worse, and basically none of them make any difference if you just put in some practice time to become familiar with it. A lot of luthiers prefer to build with more wood in that section as they feel it has an effect on tone (McNaught notoriously went from a "super nice" heel to a much larger one for tone and stability reasons).

    I'm definitely not going to be like... "oh? I guess Jeff Kiesel is the only one capable of building with that heel so I guess I have no choice but to deal with his bullshit." Like no...I'd just buy another ESP horizon.

    And I'll just point out you're typically comparing neck-thru to set-neck or bolt-on here, which is obviously not a direct comparison. Like uhh...

    [​IMG]
     
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  16. AxRookie

    AxRookie Aspiring Expert

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    And that is why I didn't buy one of those...

    I have read all of the arguments for diff types of bolt-on necks or set necks or what have you but for me, personally, I can't believe that any of them can be in any way (other than you can change a bolt-on) better than a neck-thru guitar... BUT that's just me...

    AND none of them look half as good... to ME...
     
    Last edited: May 29, 2020
  17. narad

    narad Progressive metal and politics

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    To sum up, if you want a Kiesel-style heel, there are thousands of other options out there that leave you with a guitar that doesn't look like a Kiesel (yay!) and doesn't involve dealing with or supporting Jeff (yay!).
     
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  18. Jonathan20022

    Jonathan20022 Engineer

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    Funny,

    This is the bad faith aspect of your argument, playing up that Kiesels defect rate is such a miniscule value. Pinning 50/50 on Ibanez, even if you were speaking on behalf of only your two instruments, your quote points you to Kiesel somehow being more consistent when Ibanez produces far more instruments than Kiesel ever will.

    I don't have the metrics to back it up, but we do know that Kiesel produces 4 - 5k instruments a year. Ibanez absolutely puts out exponentially more instruments than that a year, they have to with several bodies of production in various parts of the world for an infinitely larger consumer base than Kiesel will ever have.

    Even if Ibanez puts out a thousand or multiple thousand duds a year, Kiesel has more in scale to it's overall production. And a track record of completely botching up the response in the process.

    You're again, missing the point and dodging it.

    If a customer receives their Kiesel with the wrong specs, and tells the story online for others to hear. Readers don't need to own an instrument from Kiesel to then repeat the story that the customer mentioned received their guitar not as ordered.

    You're partially right, I definitely can't tell if a guitar plays or sounds good by reading. But if the person who owns the instrument is relaying their feelings about their guitar, then I don't need to own a guitar to validate their opinion.

    Another repeatedly missed point by you.

    Who orders a base Kiesel anymore? I literally only personally know a single guy who ordered Kiesels with the bare minimum, and the 2nd had a Raw Tone finish which still counts as an Option 50.

    Your response here doesn't matter, because you tout that you can order a Kiesel exactly how you want it with a risk free return period. But every case so far Jeff has gone on stream or told his "guys" to tell their customer sorry no returns, unless you foot the bill because of reason x/y/z including the option 50.

    Option 50 doesn't absolve an imperfect instrument of a return policy, and Kiesel enjoys playing that fear tactic game. Which again, does not hold up in court. You can order a base Kiesel, but look at the Kiesel Facebook Feed and try to count how many of those guitars lack an Option 50 that is easily seen.

    Op50 is an anti consumer move, and almost always used to corner the customer into some option that directly benefits Kiesel.
     
    Last edited: May 29, 2020
  19. AxRookie

    AxRookie Aspiring Expert

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    Well, that's an incomplete summary, there are many other reasons I chose a Kiesel that I haven't talked about... sooo...

    And really my guitar has no heel, that's part of the point...
     
  20. AxRookie

    AxRookie Aspiring Expert

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    But there is no way to know how much of their story is accurate or I being told as it really happened and without bias OR that you yourself are then relaying that story accurately and without bias, all people have countless biases with everything...


    how can you validate someone else's feelings about something??? how can you ever truly know someones else's true feelings??? you lost me there...

    all people have countless biases with everything and those biases play into what someone feels about something so you can never know if you or anyone else will feel the same way about something, it's unknowable...
     
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