Kiesel --- Never Again!

Discussion in 'Standard Guitars' started by MetalHead40, Mar 7, 2017.

  1. Hollowway

    Hollowway Extended Ranger

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    I think most of us were pissed that they said they were robbed. In fact, it was fraud. Jeff said, "We were robbed. Someone made off with 16 guitars." If he reported it to the police like that, he'd either be laughed at, or given a pretty stern talking to about filing a false report. He pretty much had us all convinced it was a hold up, and people took guitars out of the warehouse/showroom. You can't get "robbed" by CC fraud. There's no threat, and no weapon involved. I think he chose the wording to garner more sympathy. Saying, "we got scammed in an online sale" doesn't sound as juicy as, "we were robbed, and someone made off with 16 guitars." I haven't been robbed, but I know people who have, and it's way more traumatic than credit card / bank fraud. Even if the amount is the same. I really felt bad for the Kiesel guys when it happened, and then I was super pissed when I found out that they was no robbery, and not even a burglary.
     
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  2. adrianb

    adrianb SS.org Regular

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    It appears the general consensus over getting a Kiesel without any workmanship flaws is to avoid exotic woods and unusual features. How would a Vader with an SSS pickup configuration probably come out? Would it be a gamble? Taking it one step further, how about 22 frets (though i'm not sure if they even offer this as an Option 50)?
     
  3. MaxOfMetal

    MaxOfMetal Likes trem wankery. Super Moderator

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    Any option that makes the guitar non-returnable is not worth it. Never ever.
     
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  4. adrianb

    adrianb SS.org Regular

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    That's the final nail in the coffin for my 22-fret SSS Strat-like Vader idea. Somebody on TGP had one made -- but with 24 frets, and i really hate the look of SSS with 24 frets -- which is why i had hope. :(:(
     
  5. spudmunkey

    spudmunkey SS.org Regular

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    They currently don't offer a 22-fret version of the Vader, anyway. Fret count change isn't something I've ever seen them do, outside of models where it's an option.

    On the Vader, if they moved the 22nd fret up to where the 24th currently is, and kept the scale length the same, they would likely have to re-design the body to be able to pull the bridge back further away from the end of the fretboard. On the aries, which has a 22-fret version, it's easy because the top is flat and they just have to re-position everything. On the Vader, though, because the bridge is already at the back edge of the body, there's nowhere for the bridge to move *to*. Or, they could move the horns/fret access cutaways, but again, that's re-designing the whole body.

    For example, if you look at their 22-fret CT6 and 24-fret CT624, the highest frets of each model is in the same place, but the bridges are in different locations to keep the scale length the same.
     
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  6. Restarted

    Restarted SS.org Regular

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    If you ever find a 22 fret headless with SSS or HSS pickup configuration (but not Kiesel), pleeeaaase let me know
     
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  7. Albake21

    Albake21 "Just get a used Ibanez Prestige."

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    Out of curiosity, what's the big deal about it having two more extra frets? It's not like anything changes, frets 1 through 22 are still in the same position.
     
  8. Restarted

    Restarted SS.org Regular

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    Sliiiightly darker tone on neck pickup since it's further from the bridge.
     
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  9. mastapimp

    mastapimp SS.org Regular

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    position of the neck pickup changes.
     
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  10. Albake21

    Albake21 "Just get a used Ibanez Prestige."

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    Ah fair enough. Wasn't sure if it made a difference or not.
     
  11. spudmunkey

    spudmunkey SS.org Regular

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    Also, some folks will say that by eliminating those two frets, that the neck pickup can then sit where the node of the vibrating string is.

    However...I don't really buy that, because the moment you fret a string anywhere other than the 12th or 24th fret, the node will be somewhere else anyway, including sometimes over where a pickup would be on a 24 fret guitar. I can get (along with/behind) the "further from the bridge = warmer tone" argument, but not the "node" stuff.

    And finally, it can change how the guitar is positioned on you, similar to the difference between a single cut and double cut.

    For example, if you take the Kiesel Zeus and the Osiris. Two guitars that are otherwise identical, the double cut with the longer horn will hang such that the nut is a little closer to your torso, and the bridge is slightly more to the right.

    Now, if you have a model like their CT6 and CT624 like I mentioned above, they both have their respective highest frets at the same part of the neck joint, which means that the CT624's longer fretboard extends further out...and because the scale is the same length, the bridge is moved towards your fretting hand by that same amount.

    But they aren't all created equal. If you take a look at something like their Delos model: Start with the 22 fret version that looks a lot like a Strat. Now...just adding two frets would put them too far over the body to be accessible. Warmoth has a neck where the nut and everything else about the neck stays in the same position, and the two frets just extended further out over the body...hard to reach, and you lose the neck pickup. To make them accessible, they also have a 24-fret conversion neck that can leave the nut where it is, but then to keep those highest frets accessible, they have to bump the scale up to 28-5/8 " scale since the bridge can't also bump out. To go back to the Kiesel Delos, to solve for this, they just made the treble-side fret access cutaway deeper, and more off-set from the upper cutaway. So the nut and bridge are in the same places in relation to the guitar's body and how it will hang in front of you.
     
    Last edited: Jul 1, 2019
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  12. spudmunkey

    spudmunkey SS.org Regular

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    One correction to the post above...I said Warmoth's 24 fret conversion neck that keeps the 24th fret accessible keeps the nut at the same place...I meant "bridge" instead of nut. The nut is pushed way out.
     
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  13. noise in my mind

    noise in my mind SS.org Regular

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    I ordered a very basic build and they still messed it up.
     
  14. laxu

    laxu SS.org Regular

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    Exotic woods are fine, just avoid things like custom finishes or option 50 stuff. Pick your specs from the website, then email them to Chris@kieselguitars.com for good service and being able to ask whatever questions you have.
     
  15. adrianb

    adrianb SS.org Regular

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    I'm not sure i follow. The Vader is 25.5" scale and neck-through, going from 24 to 22 frets would just involve removing the two highest frets and re-positioning the neck pickup toward the nut. Shirley they'd have router templates for a proper 22-fret SSS config.

    Just to add to what @mastapimp and @Restarted said, the neck position on a 24-fretter just isn't as round and dark as that of a 22-fretter.

    Unfortunately the SSS pickup config i really want is an Option 50.
     
  16. spudmunkey

    spudmunkey SS.org Regular

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    1st, they would still have to re design the body. You might be able to move the Pick up route maybe one fret further down, but there just isn't Room to move the berneck hum bucker 2 frets down, without hitting a body contour.

    2nd, they currently do not make any 22 fret neck through. And even when they did a few years ago, it was a 25" scale guitar (DC150 "reissue"). Their neck pickup routes on their bolt ons is combined with the neck pocket route, so it is a bit different doing it on their neck through. It actually would take more design time and effort to do it.

    Since it has been years since they have offered a 22 fret neck through, I suspect that the 1st 22 fret headless guitar you would see from them would be a bolt on of some sort. Maaaaybe a set neck.
     
  17. adrianb

    adrianb SS.org Regular

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    Maybe i'm just being slow right now, but i still don't get your explanation. The scale length wouldn't change, so all fret positions for the 22-fret version would be the same as on the 24, minus 2 upper frets. Going by pics of Vaders, they would just have to shorten the fretboard and move the neck pickup route by a few centimeters to where it would be on a 22-fret. It wouldn't even hit the lower horn. The bridge can stay where it is. :shrug:
     
  18. Albake21

    Albake21 "Just get a used Ibanez Prestige."

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    Yeah I'm a bit confused too. What you're saying was what I mentioned a few posts back. The scale length, nut, bridge, neck, everything stays the same on a 22 vs 24 fret guitar. The only thing that changes are the overhang of the two extra frets for 24 frets and the neck pickup getting moved. Look at all of the 22 fret Aries, they are all the exact same besides having an overhang for the two extra frets vs an Aries with 22 frets.
     
  19. trem licking

    trem licking SS.org Regular

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    the issue is not removing frets and keeping everything else the same, the issue is there is not enough room to move the neck pickup up to where it SHOULD be on a 22 fret guitar. if you look at a picture of a vader and using your mind's eye to remove 2 frets and slide the pickup upwards, you will see that the pickup route will go right into the scoop... ie not enough room to put it there unless they change the body size/shape. in addition to not being possible, a hacked attempt to do it anyways would look weird as hell
     
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  20. spudmunkey

    spudmunkey SS.org Regular

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    I'm not talking about the scale length, except saying what else would need to change to keep the scale length the same.

    If you moved the neck pickup closer to the nut, I don't think there's enough room there to pick up the 2 frets worth of spacing. Kiesel won't want a skinny strip of wood there, if there;s enough wood there anyway. This is why they don't offer the Fluence on certain multiscale guitars what that same "scoop" on the lower horn.


    Look at them again (and make sure you're comparing "beveled to beveled" or "bevel delete to bevel delete", because using one of each makes the differences harder to see). The 23rd and 24th frets on the 24 fret Aries don't extend deeper into the bodies than the 22nd fret does on the 22nd fret model. That would make those two frets very very difficult to reach. On the 22 fret model, the bridge is moved in the direction of the bottom strap button, which pulls the whole scale length in, so that the 22nd fret is in the same location on the 22 fret model as the 24th fret is on the 24 fret model. Same with the CT's two versions. Eachmodel's highest fret is in the same, accessible location...and to do that, they move the bridge and nut to keep the scale the same.
     
    Last edited: Jul 2, 2019
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