Kemper Profiler and Ethics

Discussion in 'Gear & Equipment' started by RustInPeace, Feb 12, 2016.

  1. Michael_Ten

    Michael_Ten blergh yas

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    Interesting how the majority of the arguments in favor of the Kemper is that intellectual property has been stolen and modified like that before and such a practice will continue to occur.

    I'm not here to take sides, but just because something happened before in the universe, that doesn't mean it was necessarily ethical. Unethical sh*t happens all the time, folks, and people get away with it. Just so ya know.
     
  2. coreysMonster

    coreysMonster Abrakadabro

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    "Is the Kemper ruining ingenuity in amplifiers?" - "Is the Kemper giving you the ability to steal somebody else's intellectual property?" - "If you're a musician and you download songs off the internet, then f*ck you"

    Ugh I know this guy's type, I don't know if it's a German thing, but I've met so many of these older guys that really resent everything new and are so stuck on their high horse that they want everybody else to do it exactly their way, or else it's wrong.

    Not just in music, though, Germans (older ones at least) are so set in their ways in everything and never want to try anything new, this guy's opinion and this video does not surprise me in the least.

    Obvious generalisation and of course not EVERY adult German is like that but it's a prevailing characteristic of our culture and it's very annoying.

    EDIT: Sorry got so frustrated with this guy I forgot to say: I completely disagree. The Kemper is not going to make amp manufacturers stop making new amps. Even if there ever was a box that allowed you to make a 1:1 copy of the amp, it will never be the same FEELING as owning a real amp. Guitarists are absolute suckers for novelty. Having a digital copy, even a perfect one, will never be the same in the mind of many guitarists as having a real physical one. It's why people still buy Gibson guitars for thousands of dollars, not for the quality or sound, but for that crown headstock and the GIBSON decal.
     
  3. vhtforme

    vhtforme SS.org Regular

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    Profiling and returning an amp is a little crappy. But, your not stealing the amp your creating a facsimile of the amp. Earlier in his video he said the Kemper isn't the same as having the amp in the studio with a mic on it. I agree and don't think it ever will be.
    There will always be people who want the real deal especially when the price for a kemper is the same or more than the amp your trying to copy.
    The other advantage of owning the real thing is reliability an amp is not a computer. You won't be rocking the same Kemper in 30 years it'll be broken and in a trash heap long before that.
     
  4. GuitarBizarre

    GuitarBizarre Listen to physics.

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    Edit:

    Screw it, I ....ed up. Lets take this down.
     
  5. TedEH

    TedEH Cromulent

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    I listened to the whole rant and my thoughts are....

    As he started out he does make some good points. I do think that there's still value in real amps, and I do think that it's very likely that good modellers have had an impact on the market for traditional amps. I also don't doubt that people are buying amps and profiling them before returning or reselling them- and I'll admit I'm not the biggest fan of that idea- it's not something I would do, but I wouldn't get mad at someone for doing it.

    ... but I don't think it's unethical to use a modeller by any stretch. As the video goes on, as much as I can understand why someone would be upset by the competition, I can't agree that it's unethical. I get it, but I don't agree with it.

    Then he start going a bit nuts... comparing the idea of amp profiling to atomic bombs? He literally says at one point "where's my cheque?" while sitting in front of a bajillion dollars with of expensive tube amps. It's unfortunate that you can't take the guy seriously, 'cause he seems like he had some decent points buried underneath the emotion and the nonsense.
     
  6. GuitarBizarre

    GuitarBizarre Listen to physics.

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    This isn't intellectual property. They are designing, patenting and selling a physical product. A circuit.

    Their legal protections prevent someone else from copying their design and re-selling it as their own.

    Their legal protections DO NOT entitle them to any sort of ownership of the things their product is used to create. The best they can hope for is to have the buyer agree to a contract whereby they are entitled to purchase the product, provided they agree not to do certain things with the product, like for example, have it profiled.

    The difficulty is that such a contract would immediately be challenged and the amp designer would most likely lose hard. The fact the amp designer probably took someone elses product and modified it without the original creators permission in order to create their product, would certainly not help them either, as it is clear hypocrisy that they would be attempting to limit the spread of derivative works based on their product, which is itself an unashamed derivative.
     
  7. cwhitey2

    cwhitey2 BlackendCrust Metalâ„¢

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    The only part that I agree with him on is the buying and returning of the amp within a 30 day period. That is F'd up if you really think about it, you really are just stealing it. The rest of what he said was rant against a Kemper for taking his knowledge about recording and selling it in one box. It sounds like he really just wants a piece of the pie.
     
  8. GuitarBizarre

    GuitarBizarre Listen to physics.

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    It's a weak argument. The vast, vast, vast, vast, vast majority of Kemper owners are never, ever going to be doing that. They are far more likely to simply rent some time at a studio and profile that amp collection, than they are to go through the hassle of buying and returning, with all the potential for handling fees, damage, the inconvenience, cost of transport etc that involves.

    I would genuinely consider whether the monetary expense of repeated or even a single return of an amp head from a physical store or with shipping, would actually outweigh the cost of even an hour of studio time at a nice place with nice amps.

    And that's not even getting into the fact that, frankly, most people do have a conscience and, if nothing else, simply do not want to take advantage of people under false pretenses like that.

    Whatever vague point he may have had with that argument is made null simply by the fact it will be a fraction of a fraction of a fraction of a percent of users that would ever do it. For everyone else, there's a wide variety of free profiles, or even the reasonably priced and far more convenient paid profiles that can be downloaded - People will pay for the convenience of not having to leave the house and lie to people, just the same as you can pirate a videogame but most people still buy it on steam when it's cheap enough because it's just less hassle that way.
     
  9. RustInPeace

    RustInPeace SS.org Regular

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    From what I understand, doesnt the kemper merely take a snapshot of the amp at its current settings? Do the eq values you can adjust on the kemper react the same way as the amp itself does?

    I dont think a kemper can replicate all the little switches and settings on a mark V for example, so it kind of limits how much of that amp youre essentially "stealing"...

    Also, ethics and intellectual property rights really dont go hand in hand.
     
  10. TedEH

    TedEH Cromulent

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    To be fair, the people who made the Kemper didn't literally invent the computer. Even whatever components they may have come up with are likely compiled from smaller bits of existing technology (be it physically, or in terms of knowledge/software/libraries/etc). Not to put down what the Kemper people do, or how complex a lot of the job involved are.

    I don't think the point being made was that modellers are simple, but rather that there's a large difference between stealing/trading/etc. a physical amp compared to just sharing a data set that tries to describe said amp.
     
  11. GuitarBizarre

    GuitarBizarre Listen to physics.

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    Nothing is being stolen. There is nothing to steal. The input into that amp is yours. YOUR input goes through a circuit YOU own that someone else designed, and YOUR output comes out.

    If I record myself singing in a vocal booth or a church hall, does the studio or church somehow "own" any claim to "their" particular room sound? Are they entitled, legally or otherwise, to say "We contributed to your product in such a way that we feel you should not legally profit from it, instead you must only perform that song live, here, in this room"?

    No, of course not. It's absurd. You were responsible for that recording.

    In the exact same way, the amp designer is not responsible nor can they lay any claim to the noise that comes out of their product. All they can lay claim to is, physically, what their product actually *IS*. There is no intangible right given to them, again, legally or otherwise, that allows them to dictate anything else.
     
  12. TedEH

    TedEH Cromulent

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    Just an opinion, but I think you're underestimating the number of people who are, or would be, willing to go to the trouble of getting the sound they want without paying much for it- even more so if they're selling those profiles (is there a market for profiles? I dunno, but I would guess so). Lots of people live by stores and can buy/return stuff without shipping fees involved (restocking fees maybe though?).

    Also, there's not really any lying involved. If I worked at a store, I wouldn't stop someone from making a purchase if they said they were going to profile the amp. That's also what restocking fees and things like that are for.
     
  13. curlyvice

    curlyvice SS.org Regular

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    I've never actually heard of anyone buying an amp and returning it after having profiled it. I would like to see statistical evidence backing his claims about amp sales diminishing and returns increasing due to people profiling it with their Kempers.

    This video is clearly a personal attack against Kemper (and Kemper owners) because he thinks it's diminishing the amp industry, which I think we can all agree is pretty silly.
     
  14. GuitarBizarre

    GuitarBizarre Listen to physics.

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    Edit:

    Screw it, I ....ed up. Lets take this down.
     
  15. TedEH

    TedEH Cromulent

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    I don't think it's that silly an idea. He's probably right that new products are affecting the market for older/traditional products- the catch is that it's not unethical, it's just business.

    From the point of view of the regular amp makers, I can understand why they'd be paranoid that Kemper/Axe/Line6/Etc are going to take a good chunk out of their market.
     
  16. GuitarBizarre

    GuitarBizarre Listen to physics.

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    I didn't want to comment on restocking fees because I'm not american (Or in your case, I'm not from Quebec or Canada) and I don't know your sales laws, but yes, restocking fees also protect the retailer and amp designer. The amp designer has already sold his product to the store and gotten his money for it. (Unless he's done the sale on consignment, but small amp designers will absolutely not be doing that, if they have any brick and mortar distribution at all) The store will make their money twice over if they have it repeatedly returned after profiling and get to charge for that. So again, the impact, if this happens at all, which I still doubt on any real scale, will be minimal at worst.

    Sure, the amp designer's amp doesn't' get restocked so he can't sell the store another, but, much as with all the other piracy arguments - you haven't actually lost a sale if someone wasn't going to buy it in the first place.
     
  17. cwhitey2

    cwhitey2 BlackendCrust Metalâ„¢

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    I get what you are saying about the actual population/amount of people doing that are slim to none, but at the end of the day if you are doing that shame on you. :2c:


    I would rather go to a studio like you mentioned if I had a Kemper.
     
  18. curlyvice

    curlyvice SS.org Regular

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    It's hard to judge. The people buying and using ONLY a Kemper are not the traditionalists and purists, who will always exist and will always own/play tube amps. Technically speaking, the Kemper is part of the amp industry and it's success and popularity are not diminishing the industry in any way, simply creating healthy competition.
     
  19. TedEH

    TedEH Cromulent

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    Agreed. I just meant that new products can have an impact on who has what shares of that market.
     
  20. tedtan

    tedtan SS.org Regular

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    Actually, Gibson won the lawsuit against PRS. Their headstock shape and Les Paul body shape are trademarks along with their company and brand names (Gibson, Les Paul, ES-335, etc.).


    It is possible to trademark a sound (see Harley Davidson), though I'm not sure how applicable it would be to a guitar amp or FX unit.


    Yeah, but those designs go back to the original designs made by, and made public by, the companies making the tubes, transformers and other components in the first place. They were intended to be used by companies using their components in their products.


    Mic'ing up a cab, capturing the impulse, editing the file to the appropriate length, setting up a website, etc. isn't an example of the greatest amount of effort ever exerted by humankind, but it is putting work and effort into a product. :cool:
     

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