It's official, a """Pantera reunion""" is happening.

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There are other posts in this thread that do say that. I was not referring to you. Your response is measured and reasonable.

It's difficult for me to put in words because I'm the guy with an S&Key Hanneman and a totenkopf sticker on a Hanneman but NEITHER of the those guitars or the imagery associated with them sum me up as a person. Those symbols don't reflect one iota, my philosophy towards humanity. I happen to love people...all people. That's why I work in a people oriented industry.

I get it that symbols are powerful things but not every symbol is a dog whistle. Trump let it become that...he let the racists come out of the shadows and now every time we see a shadow we want to smack down what is causing it but that is not fair to the individual person. See what they do. I've known several people who had confederate crap and had not a racist bone in their body and others who owned NO symbols or flags and were the biggest racist pieces of shit I've ever known.

I dread the though of a resurrection of Himmler but even more I dread the resurrection of Robespierre.

I take no issue at all with anything you said
I do think people have a tendency to get out of control and it becomes a silly witch hunt..but the issue is some people like to downplay symbols and what they mean.
I don't want to go to an Ozzy/Pantera show and be reminded through the guitarist's Hillbilly Swastika that they still regularly find people who look like me hanging from trees and that there are several people who seem to look back at those "good ol days" fondly as part of their heritage.
That's not a negotiable thing because that's literally the history of the symbol itself.
This has been going on for far longer than Trump.
Yeah it's possible that the guy who collects racist shit and puts it all over his stuff for people to see isn't a racist..but even IF he isn't, why the fuck would I want to hang out with someone who feels the need to remind people of that? Best case scenario he's just fucking stupid, and I don't want to deal with someone that stupid.
 

MaxOfMetal

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If you're going to fly the confederate flag or put nazi symbols all over your shit, maybe fucking own it.

I'm sick of this "well, I like these symbols because they're evil and menacing and make me seem tough, but I'm not really that person" horseshit.

Nah, you're someone cool with that. Maybe you're not a racist or nazi, probably aren't even, but like, you're definitely a tool for being really into that stuff to the point it makes others uncomfortable.

Being into a band that scares old people and makes catholics angry isn't a suitable excuse for normalizing symbols like this. Never was, never will be.

You can't cry foul for folks reacting to this stuff in literally the exact way it was intended, by both the originators and in use by those who co-opted it to make their band seem extra super dark.
 

xzacx

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I do think people have a tendency to get out of control and it becomes a silly witch hunt..but the issue is some people like to downplay symbols and what they mean.
I don't want to go to an Ozzy/Pantera show and be reminded through the guitarist's Hillbilly Swastika that they still regularly find people who look like me hanging from trees and that there are several people who seem to look back at those "good ol days" fondly as part of their heritage.
That's not a negotiable thing because that's literally the history of the symbol itself.
This has been going on for far longer than Trump.
Yeah it's possible that the guy who collects racist shit and puts it all over his stuff for people to see isn't a racist..but even IF he isn't, why the fuck would I want to hang out with someone who feels the need to remind people of that? Best case scenario he's just fucking stupid, and I don't want to deal with someone that stupid.
I also think the Venn diagram intersection of “people who aren’t actually racist” and “people who aren’t racist, but totally cool with being mistaken for being racist because they fetishize racist symbolism” is awful small.
 

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No one's after Zakk though. Rational people understand the difference between someone into norse heritage versus a racist..however when a white guy is super into it..I raise a brow. It's a small red flag and I wait to see what else he says and does.
Some are somewhat "historians," even if not officially or whatever. I get your point, though. For instance, Lemmy had tons of WWI/WWII stuff, including nazi shit, but I'm pretty certain he did not support racism at all. Go ahead, look up his response to a black metalhead in the 80s. (His wording might be "uncomfortable" for 2022, but whatever)
 

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Considering I don’t know who Wagner is and I guess I just don’t go out and actively search up on all of this stuff, I’ll stick to being sheltered.
I think you might know who Wagner is and just not know it. If memory serves, he did Flight of the Valkyries, which most should know from Bugs and Elmer Fudd. "Kill the waaabbit! Kill the waaabbit!"
 
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Some are somewhat "historians," even if not officially or whatever. I get your point, though. For instance, Lemmy had tons of WWI/WWII stuff, including nazi shit, but I'm pretty certain he did not support racism at all. Go ahead, look up his response to a black metalhead in the 80s. (His wording might be "uncomfortable" for 2022, but whatever)

I think there's usually a big difference in collectors and people who get off on the hate symbols. Collectors and historians usually tend to believe in accuracy and don't try to downplay the bad as if people are overreacting. There are people who collect civil war stuff, serial killer stuff, nazi stuff, etc but they don't go "Oh c'mon, guy it wasn't like that!" They'd agree the shit that went down was heinous and fully understand why people don't care for it.
 

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I think there's usually a big difference in collectors and people who get off on the hate symbols. Collectors and historians usually tend to believe in accuracy and don't try to downplay the bad as if people are overreacting. There are people who collect civil war stuff, serial killer stuff, nazi stuff, etc but they don't go "Oh c'mon, guy it wasn't like that!" They'd agree the shit that went down was heinous and fully understand why people don't care for it.
Exactly. It is unfortunate, but the uniforms were snazzy (weren't they designed by Hugo Boss or something like that?) and lots of artists took the SS uniforms as a template for live performances.
 

CanserDYI

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I have a friend who is obsessed with WWII Japan, and has a ton of real war memorabilia from them and a room pretty decked out in it, how do people feel about that?
 
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Exactly. It is unfortunate, but the uniforms were snazzy (weren't they designed by Hugo Boss or something like that?) and lots of artists took the SS uniforms as a template for live performances.
Look..Nazi uniforms were slick as fuck and they got taken and worked into fashion, especially the industrial community. They were inhuman pieces of shit but they dressed nice.
 

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I think there's usually a big difference in collectors and people who get off on the hate symbols. Collectors and historians usually tend to believe in accuracy and don't try to downplay the bad as if people are overreacting. There are people who collect civil war stuff, serial killer stuff, nazi stuff, etc but they don't go "Oh c'mon, guy it wasn't like that!" They'd agree the shit that went down was heinous and fully understand why people don't care for it.

I’m a history geek, especially WWII history. I think my grandfather telling me stories of his time in it that spurred it. I love seeing old artifacts/relics from the time period, whether it’s a stove, plane, knife, helmet, whatever. It’s all interesting to me.

I was seeing a woman last year and one night at her house we started talking about my interest in WWII-related stuff, she went to her bedroom and came out with all these pins her grandfather brought home from the war; all Nazi pins. She’s Jewish and views them as more of a trophy than anything, like “You know how my grandfather got these? Killing nazis.”

It was a trip seeing them in person and knowing exactly how they were obtained. I’ve seen plenty of stuff in museums, but it’s entirely different to actually hold them and know some insight on their origins outside of “this is a Nazi pin”.

My interest in it has absolutely nothing to do with romanticizing fuckin’ nazi’s or any bullshit like that and I can absolutely understand someone like Lemmy who also took a big interest in it.
 

MASS DEFECT

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Always cringe... Which is a shame because until Dime was dropping N bombs I wrote him off as just a product of his time and not an actual racist.
This is deja vu. Zakk Wylde is such a lovable goofball...please don't let him be garbage too.

By all accounts, Zakk Wylde is a pretty great guy. Just a red flag for me, if you catch my drift. I mean, you still have a confederate flag and some strong Viking imagery (while not necessarily the symbols associated with the neo-nazis), it just hits two items off the fasch binggo. I just hope that he made a statement along the lines of what Synester Gates' said.

There are other posts in this thread that do say that. I was not referring to you. Your response is measured and reasonable.

It's difficult for me to put in words because I'm the guy with an S&Key Hanneman and a totenkopf sticker on a Hanneman but NEITHER of the those guitars or the imagery associated with them sum me up as a person. Those symbols don't reflect one iota, my philosophy towards humanity. I happen to love people...all people. That's why I work in a people oriented industry.

I get it that symbols are powerful things but not every symbol is a dog whistle. Trump let it become that...he let the racists come out of the shadows and now every time we see a shadow we want to smack down what is causing it but that is not fair to the individual person. See what they do. I've known several people who had confederate crap and had not a racist bone in their body and others who owned NO symbols or flags and were the biggest racist pieces of shit I've ever known.

I dread the though of a resurrection of Himmler but even more I dread the resurrection of Robespierre.

I take no issue at all with anything you said


To wit, I really like Hanneman. I own Soloists because of that dude. With all that imagery he wielded, maybe he was just a "student" of history like Lemmy. I guess white folks have more leeway when it comes to wielding symbols of hate because they can always attribute it as shock factor or own it like they are "students" of history.

But for the life of me, even if I'm Hanneman's biggest fan, I wouldn't be able to wield those symbols, much more own (and gig with) a guitar that has a totenkopf, ss, or whatever that guy was into. It just doesn't logically compute since a brown dude like me would probably be the first ones to die in such a regime. Much more, what would my grandma say if I own one of those fancy Lynch ESPs with Kamikaze and Imperial flag graphics, when most of her friends served as comfort ladies during the Japanese occupation? I just couldn't imagine divorcing the image from reality when my people's history is intertwined with them.

I guess you can say, imagery and the way they are co-opted is indeed a powerful thing.
 

Albake21

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I have a friend who is obsessed with WWII Japan, and has a ton of real war memorabilia from them and a room pretty decked out in it, how do people feel about that?
I think this really depends on what they are. I obviously see the comparison here to the confederate flag, and rightfully so. The flag = racism. Pretty straight forward. But WWII memorabilia is just that. It's history and memorabilia. That is, if none of it is as straight forward as the flag, I don't see an issue.

Unfortunately though, it's a slippery slope and massively depends on the person seeing it.
 

CanserDYI

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I think this really depends on what they are. I obviously see the comparison here to the confederate flag, and rightfully so. The flag = racism. Pretty straight forward. But WWII memorabilia is just that. It's history and memorabilia. That is, if none of it is as straight forward as the flag, I don't see an issue.

Unfortunately though, it's a slippery slope and massively depends on the person seeing it.
Not WWII memorabilia, but specifically pro Japan propaganda, medals, kamikaze models etc.

Wondering if people see that just as offensively as if he was decked out in full SS gear.
 

Albake21

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Not WWII memorabilia, but specifically pro Japan propaganda, medals, kamikaze models etc.

Wondering if people see that just as offensively as if he was decked out in full SS gear.
Ehhhh.... that might be pushing it into the confederate flag territory a bit. Tough question to answer for me.
 

ArtDecade

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Not WWII memorabilia, but specifically pro Japan propaganda, medals, kamikaze models etc.

Wondering if people see that just as offensively as if he was decked out in full SS gear.

Yup. It is incredibly problematic. ESP ran into problems when they were having Lynch models made in Korea and the staff weren't happy about the Rising Sun paint jobs. Racism is racism. If you have a hard on for some symbol that has its roots in racism, here is your sign - "Racist".
 


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