IR's Am I the only one hearing this?

Discussion in 'Gear & Equipment' started by c7spheres, Jun 5, 2019.

  1. c7spheres

    c7spheres GuitArtist

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    That GP/DI has always interested me. It looks nice!
    Hey, I gotta go now, but thanks for all your input. Thanks to everyone else here too. I really appreciate it. These are great times for options as guitarists, that's for sure. I think I'll keep my options open and just keep learning about stuff and checking stuff out. Eventually I'll check some stuff out and A/B it next to my actual rig for a long time and put it through it's paces over the course of like a year or so. That way I can learn all the nuances that only time seems to reveal. Take care for now. : )
     
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  2. Adieu

    Adieu SS.org Regular

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    Why not just run the full pre&power sims into a clean SS power amp, then into a proper cab with your favorite 12" guitar speakers?

    PS i have no experience whatsoever doing that, it's just a thought
     
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  3. Randy

    Randy Sous Chef Super Moderator

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    Forgive if I'm repeating what anyone else said but the problem isn't IRs, per se. I thought that a couple years ago, so I bought an iso cabinet and got similar results, then was told it's because iso cabs aren't ideally configured so then I went to micing a standard cabinet and still got the same results by the time you've recorded and you're listening back through headphones.

    Ultimately, the range of a microphone is very much narrower than your ear is. It reminds me a lot of how different most people sound when you hear then in person vs on TV or over the phone. Most guitar mics that are either used for recording or used for making IRs accentuate the same frequencies so you're going to hear similar results.

    When you're listening to the amp in the room, other than how much more dynamic range your ears pickup, you're also hearing a lot more of the amp reflecting off the surfaces in the room which sound richer and fuller. Even things like the sound of the back of the speakers vibrating out through the walls of the cabinet. It's hard for a mic to capture all of that, both because of the limitations of the element inside and the fact its less complex and collects sound less efficiently than your ear does (less surface area, mono vs stereo, etc).

    The closest I've gotten to replicating an 'amp in the room' sound would probably be with a mic placed like where you normally are told (1" - 2" back, off center of the cone), at least one room mic and maybe a third one at the rear of the cab (especially if it's open backed). A range of mics or EQ adjustment to get the character of all those angles helps. And then obviously you need to make sure everything is in phase.

    And sometimes you get bits a pieces of this experience with just one mic on a cab, depending on how much you're hearing the room. I think we're all used to seeing our ideal image of a studio with foam on everything to isolate just the sound of the instrument but most of the best destination studios in the world are destinations because you WANT the sound of the room.

    So to circle back to the original question, I think IRs in general are actually pretty accurate to what you'd hear if you mic the cab the same as the IR advertises it was when it was made. I just think a good "amp in room" sound takes more than that, whether you accomplish through blending IRs or more mics in your recordings.
     
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  4. ATRguitar91

    ATRguitar91 SS.org Regular

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    For those that don't like IRs, something like the Neunaber Iconoclast might suit you better.

    It's a cab sim that doesn't use IRs in favor of EQs from what I gather.
     
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  5. Shask

    Shask SS.org Regular

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    There may be something to this. As I said before, I have never been a big fan of IRs. The best sound I have gotten with my Axe II and IRs was mixing a regular miced speaker, the back of cab IR, and the room IR (Ohmhammer come with all these) together. Mixing those together gave the best representation of the sound. I have always wondered if having monitors+sub would help also.
     
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  6. laxu

    laxu SS.org Regular

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    With IRs you are always hearing a sound similar to what would be achieved recording a real amp. The sound you hear then is equivalent to listening to it in the studio mixing room, very different from hearing the cabinet in the space where it is recorded.

    A lot of people don’t like the recorded sound but it is what works in a mix. On its own it doesn’t necessarily sound pretty. I also think IRs capture the miced sound pretty accurately, for better or worse.
     
  7. c7spheres

    c7spheres GuitArtist

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    - So, A bit of an update on the strange noise in IR's thing I've been hearing. I watched more YouTube vids trying to find an IR device or demo just to hear a heavy distortion I didn't hear it on/in. I just couldn't find one. I even saw video demos of other gear like heads and stuff that claim to be mic'd by an sm57 or something and they seem to me like obviously done with an IR instead. I use to use sm57's all the time and they don't sound like the IR's I'm hearing.
    - The IR's I'm hearing sound more like a room mic picking up a speaker playing back a cab recorded with a mic to me. Like someone recorded a recording of a mic'd cab with a handheld recorder or phone or something and parallel mixed it with phase issues with a real mic'd amp/cab. They sound thin and flat and plucky/harsh to me. I know it's all about the quality of the IR and person using them, but I can't find a single video of a heavy tone that doesn't have that "IR sound". It really started buggin me.
    - I finally busted out the Reaxis Demo and hooked it all up. It sounds good to me as a jam thing/idea pad for quite/home jams, maybe even recording, but it doesn't remind me at all of the the real TriAxis I use to have. It comes with a 57/121 IR mixer with it, plus you can download your own IR's. I got a hold of a bunch of IR's for free and also a couple Redwires IR's. I tried everything and they all sound like that sound I'm talking about. WTF. So I took a really old DI track I had to see if I could spice it up in Reaper and stared loading in and mixing in/messing with the IR's in there using Reaverb plugin. Again, same exact thing. Tried every way to adjust it.
    - I got further confirmation when I started seeing AxeII vids using no cab's or IR's to a real power amp with a mic on them and was instantly relieved not hearing that noise. Plus there's hope for me to use it that way too. I think I'm just not a fan or IR's in a live rig setting, maybe in a band/ live show setting though, which is unfortunate cause I really like the whole idea. I'm still considering down the road an AxeFx for a preamp only type rig and also for recording or re-amping because I can't usually tell the difference in a full band mix/recording. SO I may be able to use them in every scenario but when I'm playing solo, and I can set all that up to swtich and reroute that way. It will still be a long time before I try anything though. Other GAS has priority right now : )
     
  8. Carl Kolchak

    Carl Kolchak SS.org Regular

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    I think the simplest way of describing this phenomenon is to say IRs sound 2D, and a real mic'd cab 3D.
     
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  9. Emperoff

    Emperoff Hasta la vista, Baby Contributor

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    Why don't you try Nebula cabinets? That way you could tell if IRs are to blame. There's nothing "plastic" or "2D" on those". Latency is high so they only work for mixing.
     
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  10. GunpointMetal

    GunpointMetal SS.org Regular

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    TL;DR - I believe you hear something, but I don't believe IRs all have the same "sound" in them.

    The only way you'll know for sure is to set up your rig, record it the way you like with mics, then make an IR out of that setup and reamp through the IR. Honestly though, you say you hear it in stuff that wasn't recorded with IR, so maybe you've just latched on to some aspect of high-gain guitar EQ than hits your ear wrong and now you hear it everywhere? Obviously an IR can't provide a tangible response like a cab, but as far as the frequency response of the sound goes, they've been proven over and over again to be identical or nearly so. I've been playing direct or with modelers for going on 10 years now and IRs are superior cab simulations compared to everything else I've tried (RedBox, GDI, Boss/Line 6/Zoom stock cab models, specialized EQ) but they will never sound like a cab in a room (except for some far field IRs this guy who designed the CLR monitor has, but he doesn't sell them and he's an asshole anways, so I wouldn't buy them, nor would I want to send a "cab in a room" tone to FOH or my DAW). I've never experience a universal "IR" sound, but I have noticed different manufacturers each have something somewhat "signature" to their IRs, but I attribute that to the same reasons certain engineers/studios seem to always get the same type of guitar sounds. It's the same engineer with the same mic'ing system, so of course it sounds similar.
     
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  11. c7spheres

    c7spheres GuitArtist

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    Those may work. I never heard of them before, so thanks for letting me know. I read up a little on those and they are based on Volterra math, which is non-linear, whereas almost all the other IR's are linear and based on the same math. So those might sound good to me and may not have that sound I'm hearing. Other IR's apparently use 1 of 3 setup types of math for the convolution and this is non of those so it Looks promising. I can't afford any of it right now so it will be a while but I'll keep those in mind for sure. Thanks.

    I think I'm hearing the math at work or something. It is a process how it convolves the audio and I think I'm hearing that. Similar to how you can hear other types of digital or analog processing.

    Good idea. The reason I'm looking into this stuff to begin with though is cause I can't currently connect up my amps. I eventually will try this stuff.

    I don't recall ever saying that. I think maybe you misread or I mis-typed something.

    - You also mentioned Far Field Ir's but to stay away from that guy. I did read today that about 4-5 months on the fractal forum from an admin on there that Fractal is working on their own variation/version of far field IR's. Apparently how to do it in a studio rather than an airplane hanger is the variation. Maybe it will be a new breakthrough similar to HighRes etc.

    -Thanks for all your input guys. I really appreciate it and learned some new stuff to keep in my mind and will eventually be able to put it all in motion to give it a try.
     
    Last edited: Jun 26, 2019
  12. GunpointMetal

    GunpointMetal SS.org Regular

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    Yeah, don't spend money on anything designed by or associated with Jay Mitchell, lol. Cliff did say over on TGP that they were gonna try to shoot some far-field as well as "room-free" IRs at some point soon.
     
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  13. c7spheres

    c7spheres GuitArtist

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    I did see one thing on YouTube that says Fractal Audio far field ir's that is a clip about 1min long. It sounds good, but I do still hear that sound. Can't wait to see/hear what the future brings though. It's getting better that's for sure.

    I guess they do have some now:
    https://shop.fractalaudio.com/far-field-session-1-ultrares-cab-pack/
     
    Last edited: Jun 26, 2019

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