IR's Am I the only one hearing this?

Discussion in 'Gear & Equipment' started by c7spheres, Jun 5, 2019.

  1. c7spheres

    c7spheres GuitArtist

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    I think the thing about all the modelers and recordings of real amps even I'm hearing lately that they have in common which I don't like is the IR's.
    It doesn't matter what it is whether a plugin like Reaxis or Bias, AxeFx, Helix, Kemper, GSP1101, TwoNotes Torpedo with real amps etc.. I keep hearing this sound everywhere, like a tire leaking air out. I've talked about it several times now in different threads and I keep hearing it. The thing they all have in common is IR's. The only common thing is IR's at this point.
    At first I thought maybe it's YouTube but it's not because nothing else has it that I hear, including a lot of music, which coincidentally wasn't recorded with IR's because it was before that time.
    It sounds like air rushing out of a tire, and anemic, thin and plucky with a hollow midrange. There's also a false sense of oomph to the palm mutes and chugs. Like it hits a brick wall limiter in the digital realm instead of actually pushing then it chokes out. Almost like the phase is reversed on the speaker or something. I hear this on all different systems and even headphones.
    There's nothing wrong with my ears because I don't hear it on other stuff. It really sucks because I want to get an AxeFx3 and have it work for me so bad, but if I did I'm thinking I'd have to just use it as a preamp and effects with no IR's or cab sim stuff, which is fine.
    I can't hear the difference in recordings, usually, in a mix with drums and stuff which is great, but, Seriously, Am I the only one hearing this? How come nobody else seems to be talking about this? It's driving me nuts.
    PBA, I'm not anti modeler or a tone snob or putting anything or anyone down. I'm seriously wondering if I'm the only one hearing this and WTF is going on? I'm convinced it's the IR's.
    I'd like to hear something like an AxeFx without any cab or amp modeling or IR's, run into a tube amp and recorded with a mic and no IR"s used just to hear what that sounds like but I can't find any clips of that anywhere. You know, traditional recording and mixing.
     
  2. Adieu

    Adieu SS.org Regular

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    IRs sound plastic, agreed
     
  3. Shask

    Shask SS.org Regular

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    I usually can't stand IRs because I hear them as having this funky smooth, fuzzy upper mids. It is almost a synthetic type sound, like playing a keyboard synthesizer. The upper mids have this unusually fuzzy and smooth upper mids and treble that just sounds and feels awful to me.

    I almost always play my Axe-FX II into a Matrix poweramp and 212 cab.
     
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  4. Ribboz

    Ribboz Enjoy

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    Could you provide an example?
     
  5. c7spheres

    c7spheres GuitArtist

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    Yes, It's literally almost everything I've heard as of late. The latest one is the one from this forum with the 6505 comparison. Even the actual 6505 sounds have it. Again, I can't tell the difference mostly in the context of a mix but can usually when A/B'd. Not always. In this video I can't tell which one is real at all. They all have "that" sound to me. It's really strange. I'm sure the person that posted the vid is fully capable and the results are good, but I still hear that sound. I know he says he used the OwnHammer Ir's on all these clips, which from what I understand are good Ir's as far as Ir's go. Again, I'm not putting anything or anyone down. I just want to see how many other people can hear what I'm describing. I've played a real 5150, 6505 and 6505+ before (not owned) and they were quite different, and when I hear old recordings before IR's existed of 5150 stuff they don't sound like the models etc. I understand all the variables with this stuff and have a recording background from pre computer times. Be aware also that I'm new to modelers and IR's and stuff and don't and haven't owned one before. When I did try the AxeFxIIXl before for just a few minutes I was really impressed. I ran it through my VHT two/fifty/two with the cabs and IR's off, like a preamp with a Boogie model ( a recto I think) and in 5 minutes was really diggin it. I didn't hear this sound at that time. Here's the most recent clip, but I also watched many others, like that Cooper Carter Guy doing all the presets of the AxeFx3 with a different riff for each one, and his Dream Theater cover as well, which sounded really good to me, but still had some of that sound in there. It's really strange. I think what 's going on is that they sound good in a mix context to me, which is what they are meant for, not an isolated context. It's like I'd have to realtime control the cab's and IR's in and out of the mix and when there is only a guitar part bypass those or something so it sounds normal to me.

     
  6. Konfyouzd

    Konfyouzd has left the building Contributor

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    You might be describing something that's been annoying me lately but couldn't put a name to on my own... Listening to that video now.

    EDIT: Nevermind. My ears can't hear what you're describing. My recordings just suck. :(
     
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  7. Soya

    Soya Poor person

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    Have you listened to them all on the same speaker setup?
     
  8. c7spheres

    c7spheres GuitArtist

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    I've listened on my computer speakers, Tv, Laptop (i know, not good), Yamaha hs monitors and AthM-50 headphones. It is there.
     
  9. Jason B

    Jason B Unbanned

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    Psychoacoustics are a bitch, and impossible to unhear once you start attributing it to commonplace sources. It’s been my experience that that particular frequency band will jump out at you until you make your peace with it or avoid it altogether.
     
  10. c7spheres

    c7spheres GuitArtist

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    I hear ya. I think a more accurate way to describe it would be like a non modulated out of phase sound layered in there.
     
  11. mnemonic

    mnemonic Custom User Title

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    Is this just IR’s you’re talking about, or do mic’d tones also have this quality? Close-micing a cab always seems to have hissy frequencies that need to be dealt with. That being said I gave up on IR’s pretty early in my axe FX ownership for various reasons, and I don’t really record at all anymore, so I’m real cab all the way.

    I know people like Ola Englund can pick out IR’s in a mix, so there must be a difference there even if it’s hard to find. Maybe IR technology just isn’t there yet for you.
     
  12. mongey

    mongey SS.org Regular

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    What he said.

    OP Have you heard a close mic’d amp tone isolated you like ?
     
  13. c7spheres

    c7spheres GuitArtist

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    It seems to be IR's cause I do hear mic'd tones I like and am familiar with close micing and recording. Even though the highs have to be dealt with on mic'd tones and even direct tones, I find they still have that beefy chunk to them whereas the IR's just don't. I also suspect that maybe it could have to do with double tracking, but even the videos I see that indicate a double tracking used seem to have it. I guess techincally an IR is a mic'd thing but I wonder if it's the way it's processed/decoded in the player maybe? I think they use convolution players if I remember right and stuff like convolution reverbs and such don't seem to have it. That being said I don't hear it on clean tones, but the clean tones to sound anemic and plucky and thin for the most part. They do seem to handle the cleans much better which I assume is much easier to make seem accurate as distortions will reveal all kinds of stuff. I said in another post that once I hear an IR I like I'm likely sold on this stuff cause it's so close for me. I really can't tell in the a/b tests you see on Youtube most of the time when there's other instruments going with it so that is promising to me.

    Question for you: Having gave up on IR’s pretty early in your axe FX ownership do you find using it as a preamp works and responds well for you? I assume you run it into a real tube amp then? I currently use a VHT two/fifty/two and I know a lot people use to use that setup with the Axe FX.

    So you say Ola Englund can hear it to then, and so can a couple other people in this thread. That's good to know that I'm not the only one at least. Did you give up on IR's for the same reasons?

    Thanks
     
  14. Jason B

    Jason B Unbanned

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    He does it by smell, though.
     
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  15. c7spheres

    c7spheres GuitArtist

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    ^ Yep. I kinda explain above. I actually like my direct tones better than mics even. I've used many mics over the years (sm57, r121, 914, ev??? etc.) and they are great mics. I use to use the double mic technique with one near center and one on another speaker near middle or edge and blend them for a fat tone, but I get better results with my Sequis Motherload Pro setup. I talk about it a bit in my post in the Show us pics of your rig post. They really capture the full character feel, tones and sound of your amp and backflow of the tube amp. Even fully loaded without a cab they sound great. The character is actually better fully loaded than using the actual cabs imo. I love the tone. All I gotta do is cut the bass and barely boost the treble. I don't even need all the other features it offers. If I got an Axe or something the first thing to try after playing with it would be to make my own IR's and clones of my rig to see how close I can get. The portability and lack of maintenance/potential issues and ease of recording is just so appealing. Right now all my stuff is in storage and I can't use it due to my living situation so that's why I'm even looking into modelers and stuff.
     
  16. mnemonic

    mnemonic Custom User Title

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    Yeah Ola made some ‘guess that tone’ videos lately and he made some comments about impulses.

    The length of the impulse may be a factor. I remember there being huge hype around ‘ultrares’ impulses with the axe FX ii, which as I understand are just much higher resolution, longer impulses than most other people use.

    From what I understand, the larger/longer the impulse, the more processing power it takes to process the sound in real time, so many IR loaders will use shorter, truncated IR’s. There are demos online of (for example) 20ms IR’s vs 200ms IR’s. I saw it discussed recently on TGP in the digital modelling forum. Some people were fine with the shorter IR and some were not.

    Personally I gave up on IR’s because I didn’t need the versatility (only playing metal), I wasn’t recording so I didn’t need to go direct, and I can be as loud as I want at my house. Also I always came back to vintage 30 impulses so I just got a v30 cab. Also ended up cheaper than a high end FRFR.

    I do have a 2/50/2 power amp, and the axe FX can sound great though the 2/50/2, but it’s fiddly to set up in that way. The 2/50/2 is quite neutral but it’s still a tube power amp and still colours the tone more than a solidstate flat response power amp. So with power amp modelling on in the axe FX, I can end up with overly scooped, boomy/fizzy tones if I’m not careful. But disabling power amp sims and going preamp-only doesn’t work great for all models. Like if I’m after a Recto tone, a Recto preamp into a 2/50/2 is pretty different since a Recto power amp and a 2/50/2 are pretty much at opposite ends of the spectrum as far as power amp sounds go.

    That being said, it did work well for some amp models, and some amp models even sounded good with power amp sims on, into the 2/50/2. Usually the models that are very mid-heavy.

    I prefer using my old matrix solidstate power amp, it’s just easier to set up and at this point in the axe FX firmware lifecycle, it sounds great and I don’t really think I’m missing anything.

    I have also run the axe FX into my recto’s power amp, and since that power amp is so coloured sounding, nothing sounded good with power amp sims on. But since the Recto power amp sim imparts so much of its own sonic signature to the tone, it basically made everything just sound like a different flavour of Recto.
     
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  17. c7spheres

    c7spheres GuitArtist

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    Thanks for the info. Yeh, I saw a thing on Youtube a guy making and showing 1.5sec IR"s and the entire tail end was almost nothing there anyways. Apparently the firs 15ms or so is like 99% of the IR's effect. I couldn't tell the difference in sound really, but when he played the IR by itself the short IR's had a click sound in them and the longs one's did not. Apparently the longer was supposed to be better.

    So in an AxeFx are you able to just use the preamp section of an amp then or you must have the power section as well in order to use the amp model? For ex. could you use just the preamp of a Recto model and turn off the power section and go into the 2-50-2 making the Axe into just a preamp modeller? LIke just bring up a TriAxis preamp model or something like that even?
     
  18. mnemonic

    mnemonic Custom User Title

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    Yes, all the models in the axe FX are full amp (preamp and power amp) but the power amps can be disabled if you want, making them preamp-only.

    This can be done on an amp-by-amp basis or done globally so all power amp sims are off.

    The one thing it can’t do, is turn off preamp sim and leave power amp sim on. I wish it could, so I could run real preamps into the axe FX.
     
  19. c7spheres

    c7spheres GuitArtist

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    That sounds like the way to run it then with the 2-50-2. I'm not looking for exact duplicates of amp sounds and know I like my 2-50-2. If it sounds good that's great. doing power section models would be awesome like you're talking about. I wonder if that would ever be an update. Did you ever run it that way with the 2-50-2 with the power sections off as just a preamp then and if so, did you like it?
     
  20. mnemonic

    mnemonic Custom User Title

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    I was mostly after Recto tones so I spent a lot of time trying to get the full amp sim to work into the 2/50/2. I think it did work as long as I kept mids high (or boosted them with an eq in the axe FX), and turned down the low and high resonance on the speaker impedence page of the axe FX.

    I did have some patches preamp-only using the SLO and Recto models and they were also very good. It’s been a while since I last put the axe FX into the 2/50/2, I mainly use the 2/50/2 for when I want to use real preamps, like my GP/DI, or various pedal preamps. I should probably give it another try soon.

    Before the last update, I think using the tube poweramp did give a slight advantage in feel, but I like this new update so much, I should really try comparing again.
     

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