I'm Transgender. Ask me anything.

Discussion in 'Off-Topic' started by SexHaver420, Dec 8, 2020.

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  1. lewis

    lewis SS.org Regular

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    Excellent reply. Thanks :)
    Insightful.

    (Sorry for the poor choice/slip up from me about the "becoming female" - meant that more from the perspective of society really, not yourself. But will try not make that error again)
     
  2. DrakkarTyrannis

    DrakkarTyrannis

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    The fact that in every culture there are trans people proves that transgenderism is a thing. All it takes is for a human to realize that something is not right with them and then figure out the solution. Even if you take away modern society, all a human would have to do is look to the opposite sex and realize they associate more with that than their own reflection.

    It's not the gender role that a transgender person is attracted to but the gender itself. Doing things to conform to the gender roles of the culture is just the way to make it outwardly obvious as to how they identify but that's not unique. Cisgendered people do the exactly same thing. It's pretty much a survival thing.
     
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  3. lewis

    lewis SS.org Regular

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    I love this question. I'm really fascinated by roles society plays these days in just about anything and I think this is a really interesting question to put forward on this subject.
     
  4. TedEH

    TedEH Cromulent

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    It's comments like this that lead me to asking people what they mean when they talk about gender - because too much of this is abstracted beyond being able to mean the same as what I was trying to talk about. "In every culture there are trans people" doesn't mean that every culture understands what it means to be trans the same way, or that those other cultures have "our version" of trans people, or that they think of gender or sex the same way we do at all. I mean WE can't even get two people to think of these things the same way. There are certainly other cultures that have transsexuals. Other cultures certainly have people who fall outside of their defined traditional roles. But we're looking at it from a perspective of a culture that has drawn a lot of social lines on the basis of sex, even when sex has nothing to do with it, which I don't think we can assume applies to other cultures in the same way.

    Like I don't understand at all what "it's not the role, it's the gender" is supposed to mean. Is the gender not the role? If it's neither sex nor a social role, then what is it? And if we can't (or refuse to) define or discuss or come to some consensus or conclusion as to what these mean, should we not refrain from applying contested vague abstractions to other cultures?
     
    Last edited: Jan 19, 2021
  5. DrakkarTyrannis

    DrakkarTyrannis

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    It's very simple and you're making it far more complex than necessary.

    Every culture has an idea of female and male roles. Regardless of what those societal roles are, a trans person would STILL be a trans person.

    A trans woman isn't trans just because they want to wear a dress or have long hair. They identify as female. Regardless of what we think a female is, that's how they identify. Dressing and presenting as such is no different from what cis people do. If I'm a woman and I want to be perceived as a woman then I do the things a woman of my culture does.

    You could be in a society where everyone is naked and there's no such thing as makeup and "chick stuff"..but whatever women in that society do, you would do it if you identify as female.

    Every culture has male and female signifiers. Transitioning is simply moving in line with those signifiers as to match what's inside and as a means of survival
     
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  6. TedEH

    TedEH Cromulent

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    I disagree. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

    This is the part I don't assume translates. Other cultures have alternate societal roles, but I don't think it's fair to say that all other cultures have this description of identity. I don't think there's any reason to assume other cultures share our obsession with identity. Another culture might have people who break out of their born-with-biology-informed roles, but I've not ever come across anything that suggests it's handled the way we do it - with the suggestion that there's an inner "self" being expressed, with the medical/surgical procedures attached, puberty blocking etc., and constant arguing about pronouns and bathrooms.

    I'm not suggesting that other cultures don't have trans people by some definition. What I am suggesting is that their relationship with what gender is in the first place could be different enough to make that distinction mean something very different - and that it's worth exploring that instead of just assuming it's all exactly the same as how we think of it.
     
  7. DrakkarTyrannis

    DrakkarTyrannis

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    Lots of other cultures are actually far more civilized on the matter. The reason it's a big deal to us is because stupidity and homophobia have turned it into a bigger issue than needed.

    There's no constant arguing about pronouns. The only people arguing are those who want to justify their bigotry. There's no conversation about bathrooms among people with sense. The only people concerned about, again, are idiots.

    We're also, as a society, more advanced on the medical and science front..so trans people have access to hormone blockers, surgeries, etc. Not to mention as a trans person, blending in with society is a means of survival. "Passing" isn't just a goal but a means to escape persecution and harm.

    If our society treated trans people like other societies then there would probably be less emphasis on passing because it wouldn't be the difference between a normal life and one of ridicule and death threats.
     
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  8. TedEH

    TedEH Cromulent

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    The bathrooms and pronouns thing was meant just to keep the comment light rather than focusing entirely on the medical aspect.

    This is kind of my point. We have these distinctions - we have the idea that "gender" however you define it must be affirmed with surgery for some reason, we have the idea of "passing", we have people pretty regularly debating the meanings of these things - and I think those are distinct to what we're observing happening in our own culture, and they're meaningful details in each cultural variant of this. Each one of these cultural takes understands it very differently - in terms of what it means, in terms of it's role or purpose, in terms of whether or not there's a sexual element, in terms of acceptance, in term of whether or not we try to continue to constrain to a sex-based binary, in terms of language and categorization, etc.

    I'm obviously no authority on these things, but I imagine that the experience of say a two-sprit person or a hijra person (I have no idea if that's a culturally sensitive word or not) is very different than the experience of a western trans person. And a lot of these conversations tend to revolve around the experience of the person, doesn't it?
     
  9. DrakkarTyrannis

    DrakkarTyrannis

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    What I'm saying is..those people of those cultures don't focus so much on surgeries and whatnot because in our culture bigotry is a much more deadly thing.

    In our culture, failing to fit into society can mean ridicule, persecution, and/or death. We don't allow people to just be who they want. "Men in dresses" are a topic because of bigotry. Homophobia is so out of hand that even the topic of trans people tends to focus on trans women, because bigots envision a manly looking man wearing women's clothes trying to do evil things. No one even mentions trans men and whatnot because, as usual, the focus is on men being some sort of sexual predator.

    In other cultures, being trans is seen as a common thing and just a thing that happens. In our culture it's wrapped up in nonsense and sexuality.

    A trans person's identity isn't affirmed by surgery. There are lots of trans people who don't want surgery. The thing is, many who want to fully transition want to do so because it means blending in and blending in means safety. In our culture "the surgery" is a big thing, again, because of bigotry. Trans people often get asked by cis people if they've gotten the surgery because cis people don't even get that it's not about that. There's so much misinformation and ignorance regarding the issue that the entire trans issue has become it's own monster.

    If our society saw gender as other cultures there wouldn't be so much sensationalism over the issue. Hell that's why this entire thread exists. Because a trans person decided to answer questions so cis people could get accurate info because rarely do they ever get that chance.
     
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  10. TedEH

    TedEH Cromulent

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    I don't know that I believe our culture's bigotry is deadlier than others - maybe that's a bias on my part coming from Canada, where you can more or less get away with doing or being anything you want, and the worst you'll get is some unpleasant internet comments. I mean, we do sort of just allow people to be who they want. Gender is, as far as is relevant to this discussion, just a self-report that nobody is allowed to contest. While not every comment here has been 1000% supportive, nobody has said "no you're not what you say" or "you can't/shouldn't do that", etc. (and anyone who does gets some significant push-back).

    Don't get me wrong, I appreciate that. And I continue to prod because I want to understand. Arguably, I learned a bit this morning about a handful of other cultural gender ideas. I continue to wish that more of these questions were answered by OP rather than people speaking on other people's behalf.

    I've heard people say that that's exactly what the surgery is about though. If the goal is safety, would not the safest thing to do be to do nothing at all? Would blending in not be the easiest if you conformed to what you're already physically closest to? I suspect that the reasoning/motivation behind taking that route is going to vary dramatically depending on who you ask. If I'm wrong, I'm glad to be wrong, but the answer to every question can't be to just say "because bigots" and stop the conversation there.
     
  11. MaxOfMetal

    MaxOfMetal Likes trem wankery. Super Moderator

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    https://theconversation.com/transgender-hate-crimes-are-on-the-rise-even-in-canada-121541
     
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  12. DrakkarTyrannis

    DrakkarTyrannis

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    One, you as a cis person can't really speak on whether or not bigotry is dangerous to trans people. That's like a white person saying that racism isn't a big deal, how would they know?

    Secondly what you're essentially saying is "Isn't it safer to just be miserable and suicidal?". That's what doing nothing at all is. Being completely miserable and never being who they truly are. Nobody wants to live like that.

    Like I said, this entire thing is simple and you're making it more difficult than it needs to be.

    People want to be happy. Some people are not happy in their own bodies and they take the steps necessary to be happy. Bigotry stands in opposition of the happiness of others and ends up convoluting simple situations. Without bigotry that happiness would be a lot easier to obtain.
     
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  13. TedEH

    TedEH Cromulent

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    I stand corrected, thanks for that.

    Aren't you also?

    I'm not SAYING anything, I'm asking a question. At no point during this conversation has the implication been that trans people are inherently suicidal, but if that's what we're going with then sure. Obviously I would prefer that people do whatever they feel they need to do to avoid killing themselves. Now what you're saying is that trans people are inherently suicidal and the reason is entirely that people are bigoted - and I think there's far too much to unpack there for a quick response.
     
  14. DrakkarTyrannis

    DrakkarTyrannis

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    You are reaching way too hard.

    For one, out of the two of us one is clearly more knowledgeable about trans issues and has had first hand experience with any of it.

    Secondly, by asking wouldn't it be safer for them to not do anything you are essentially asking if they'd be safer just being miserable. The main point in transitioning is to align the outside with the inside. If trans people were happy as-is this wouldn't even be an issue. Depression, suicidal tendencies, etc have been discussed multiple times in this thread. It's pretty much common sense that a person who feels they aren't allowed to be who they truly are would more than likely be rather depressed.

    Show me where I said that trans people are suicidal because people are bigoted. Go ahead and quote where I said that. For some reason you keep reading what you want to read instead of what's there.

    Again..this is all very simple. I have no idea why you keep trying to get overly philosophical and make it more complicated than it needs to be.
     
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  15. SexHaver420

    SexHaver420 Oops I'm a girl.

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    In my experiences pretty much the entire reason that transgender people in America (I don't have any experience with trans people in other countries) have any issues at all is almost 100% based on bigotry. If I wasn't afraid of how people would react and the consequences including possible violence and the possibility of disowned by almost everyone I knew I would have come out earlier.

    I don't even bother with correcting people who misgender me in public and if I'm with my friends I tell them not to either because I don't want to cause a problem or risk getting harassed or beaten up. I don't really ever think I'm going to be 100% passable because I'm reasonably tall and skinny with no curves and I have giant gross man shoulders. If I go out dressed fem with leggings or a dress on or something most people are pretty cool about it and gender me correctly even if they clock me. Other people (usually older people) make it an issue for no reason and treat me like shit on purpose.

    For example I was picking up a refill of hormones last night and the pharmacist complimented me on my lashes and eyes were and asked me if I get them done somewhere and I told her no and she was really nice. As soon as she went and got my pills and saw that I was picking up HRT her whole attitude changed and she did everything she could to address me with male pronouns as many times as possible. All she had to do was say have a good night and she went out of her way to be mean to me.

    I also have it really easy compared to most other trans people and I'm really lucky that I've only lost a few family members and most of my male friends and that I didn't get kicked out of the place I'm living.
     
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  16. TedEH

    TedEH Cromulent

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    When you phrase it that way.... technically yes. I'm not saying it's better overall, but if the goal is safety from the abuse of others, then yes, technically it would be safer to be miserable. I'm not advocating for it, but it doesn't make it less true.

    I think you and I have a lot more in common than you'd like to admit.

    That perfectly fair. My real question though is if that fear wasn't there - if acceptance was just a given - do you think you'd still feel driven to the same kind of physical transition?

    Maybe a different phrasing -> In an ideal world, if you take all bigotry out of the picture, how different then is your path to whatever makes you comfortable?
     
  17. SexHaver420

    SexHaver420 Oops I'm a girl.

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    If the fear wasn't there I'd still feel driven to physically transition. I have no idea how to explain what it's like to look in the mirror and see the wrong person looking back at you. It really fucks you up if you have to look at it every day. People being accepting doesn't make the dysphoria go away. I don't think it ever goes away. It just gets easier to manage and things like social transition and hormones and surgeries make that easier for people.

    If every cis person had to experience a few days of horrible dysphoria that's driving them towards suicide trans rights would be a given and there wouldn't need to be a discussion.
     
  18. TedEH

    TedEH Cromulent

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    I guess I'm trying to find the distinction between it being an internal vs. external motivation, and your comment clears a good bit of that up, at least as far as your own experience goes.

    The best analogue I can think of (and it's probably not a great comparison) is that I dropped a ton of weight once in a short period of time. From about 310lbs to just over 140lbs. When I did this, there was a period of time where I'd see 140lbs me and still see a fat guy. The weirdest sensation is trying to walk through a space and the mental math as to whether or not you will fit somewhere just doesn't add up. You "know" that you've always taken up x amount of space, so you still give yourself that much room - even though in actuality there's enough room for twice that.

    Does that sound like there's any parallel? I know it's not really comparable, but it's the best I can think of at the moment.
     
  19. SexHaver420

    SexHaver420 Oops I'm a girl.

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    I'm pretty sure the vast majority of trans people including the few that I know would think there's an internal motivation. You can't turn somebody trans or straight or gay or whatever. They just are that way. Being trans fucking sucks and I wouldn't wish it upon anyone.

    I have a bit of a parallel with the taking up a certain amount of space part. I had to change how I lift and move things because now I have boobs that get in the way and I was flat for 27 years. I reached across my desk earlier to grab something and hit myself in the boob. I'm still getting used to it.
     
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  20. lewis

    lewis SS.org Regular

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    Another intense question. Apologies if it drives a little to close to the nerve.

    Basically do you think it's the brain that is wrong/broken or the body being wrong/need changing, in these instances?.


    I've thought this before but never knew anyone or come into contact with anyone who is trans, to really ask the deep questions about it and try to learn.
     
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