I think most modern music sucks, because...

Discussion in 'General Music Discussion' started by gnoll, Nov 7, 2020.

  1. bigcupholder

    bigcupholder SS.org Regular

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    That goes back to cost of entry as someone else mentioned. Mobile games are starting to be pretty fragmented already because they're lower budget, so I expect console and PC gaming will get there one day too. I don't think we're too far away from the days where any random developer can make a game with high quality 3D graphics the way pixel art games are made by indie devs today.
     
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  2. TedEH

    TedEH Cromulent

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    I'd argue we're already at that point, but I suppose that's getting farther off topic for this thread.
     
  3. gnoll

    gnoll SS.org Regular

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    Lol, you guys just go ahead haha. Funny seeing this thread jump up every once in a while.
     
  4. TedEH

    TedEH Cromulent

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    Well in that case, there's clearly a sort of analogue/overlap/whatever you call it between the two subjects.

    That being: maybe things feel less "special" now because the magic of not knowing how things work and not having access to the tools to do it yourself is gone. Music doesn't sound the same to me now that I have a general idea of how it's made. Video games similarly have lost a certain kind of magic once you've seen how they're done, and know that all of the same tools and tricks are basically available to anyone.

    And I mean that literally, by the way. As a person who has worked on video games that I'm sure at least some people on this forum have played, I can tell you that the tools are out there. The barrier to entry is pretty low. Anyone, with the time to learn how to do it, can make a video game - and most of the tricks to it are public knowledge at this point.

    And that makes it sort of less special. Like, the mystery is gone. The element of novelty is gone.
     
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  5. thebeesknees22

    thebeesknees22 SS.org Regular

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    Interesting. mmm coming from vfx in movies/tv, I have to say there are still innovations in software that surprise me every year. Some of the advancements today compared to what we had 13-14 years ago sometimes make me sit back and think wow holy crap... that's awesome! I can't believe we can do that now! And I basically have to learn a whole new toolset every year, because things change so much so fast.... But I suppose the leap of tech in games is more tied to new consoles so you don't get as big of a jump in yearly advancements? I guess you can't get that same wow factor every year.

    Anyway, I digress. Coming from vfx, film/tv haven't really lost their novelty, but..... burnout from the job is real. It is so real lol. The deadlines have just gotten insane, and borderline impossible to not run people into the ground and keep the quality high.

    But ..none of that takes away from my movie going experience. A good movie is a good movie, and I still love watching them.

    Anyway back to the main topic:
    I think one of the problems with modern music is that we all get stuck in the recommendation Algorithm. We search for a few bands, and then we get recommended only bands that match that style... etc. etc.. and it's hard to break that algorithm on youtube/spotify/whatever. You have to really dig sometimes to find new good stuff, or just get lucky...
     
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  6. gunch

    gunch Riff Chugman

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    Another tangent but if graphics technology pipelines and workflows have gotten so sophisticated and efficient why are game devs continually getting crushed by heavy workloads?
     
  7. MrWulf

    MrWulf SS.org Regular

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    Unreasonable expectations + corporate greed. See: EA and Battlefield.

    Activision at least have the decency to rotate Call of Duty between 3 studios with a 3 years development cycle. Meanwhile DICE is expecting to crank out a Battlefield every year, and it keep getting worse and worse as time goes by.
     
  8. TedEH

    TedEH Cromulent

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    I said that the tools were powerful and accessible, not that making games was easy, or that workflows were efficient. Unity is great. Unreal is great. All the little middleware things you can get to add into that are great. None of those things coordinate your workflow though. None of those things ensure clear communication between team members, or different teams/disciplines. None of those things have anything to do with project management.

    My honest opinion why devs are constantly getting crushed by workloads? Because deadlines, because estimates suck, and because the industry is slow to learn from it's own mistakes.

    Estimates are the least reliable thing in the world, but project management is entirely based on them. If someone comes to you and says "how long will it take you to make this game?", you have no idea. Nobody has any idea. But you need a number or your project doesn't happen. So you do the best you can, you come up with a number, and at least one of two things will happen: either your number will be very wrong, and/or scope will change so dramatically that your number never mattered. But the deadline doesn't move - because the deadline is dictated by your budget. Now you need to make five years worth of game in three years somehow, because the alternative is to cancel and lose everything you've spent so far, or not get paid for the extra two years. And the best part is that you don't know how wrong your number is until it's too late for it to matter anymore - because estimates still suck when you came up with them years into an ongoing project.

    Slap that on top of huge pressures to always innovate, always deliver bigger worlds, shinier graphics, better sounds, new technologies, etc.etc., and if you're doing it in a professional environment, you have to do all this with the drag of formal processes, reviews, iterations, quality control, etc.

    Let me clarify my previous statement:

    If you're an individual who wants to just make a game without the constraints of a team or a budget or formal rules/processes, you can just fire up Unreal and make something that looks pretty great on your own, and pretty quickly. There's enough knowledge online that you could learn C++, learn how shaders work, learn how Blender works, and you could make a very good looking game on your own without any formal education and without lacking any big "trade secrets" that make games what they are. I'm not saying it's easy, but you can technically do it. It costs no money, and all of the information it takes to do it is out there. That's why you see so many "classic game remade in Unreal engine" videos on youtube - because the basic framework for making shiny video games exists already. It's been done for you. You don't need to write an engine or think up the math to light a scene or reinvent game physics.

    Making a commercially viable and full-featured software entertainment product is otherwise an insanely difficult thing to do.

    To bring the parallel back around:

    Reaper is insanely cheap, and all the knowledge it would take to produce a studio-quality album is out there online. You don't need to re-invent how to mic a cab, there's cheap or free sims/samples for all the instruments you don't know how to play or can't afford, there's plugins that basically mix for you -> and as such, home recording is VERY accessible. But how many of us are putting out award winning albums? Having the tools available doesn't give you songwriting talent, or handle the social element, the project planning, the marketing, bringing musicians together to actually track and write things, etc. It doesn't give you the ear to be able to tell that you're using the tools right in the first place. And what's the result? Lots of samey-sounding releases on forums that use the same samples and plugins and follow the same tutorials etc.

    Don't get me wrong - there's some really great things happening at all levels of experience in both of those domains. Some really creative stuff backed by drumkit-from-hell. Some really great game ideas that are just a collection of purchased Unity plugins slapped together in a creative way. There's a huge stretch between that and a major label release or a AAA game.

    Anyone can make music or games. The potential to make good quality stuff is arguably there. I stand by that. But I never said it was easy. Making unique, innovative or high quality games or music is a different conversation.
     
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  9. gunch

    gunch Riff Chugman

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    So basically kill all middle management
     
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  10. TedEH

    TedEH Cromulent

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    No, it's not a middle management thing, that's not what I said at all. It's a "games are huge complicated projects that take a variety of disciplines and a lot of coordination to accomplish anything" thing. If you take all the management out of the equation, then nothing will ever get done.

    I'm trying not to turn this into a gaming thread, so I'm trying to put it in very general terms, but that's hard to do I guess.

    As much as it would be easy to point fingers at "this is just management's fault for picking bad deadlines or being inflexible", that's just not an accurate picture of what's going on. Any management I've ever had to work with was well aware that their role was to support the people being managed and to get the product done. If they base their deadlines and budgets (which determine whether or not get approval to do the work in the first place) on your estimate, is it your fault or theirs if the product isn't delivered on time? Then you might say - ok, well we knew that this is an iterative type of work that doesn't always fit deadlines, so why not just be flexible from the beginning, or just not release anything until done? It's a nice idea, but who is going to pay for that? Every delay costs huge amounts of money. If you employ 100 specialists to work on a video game, and you delay a month, that's cost you the value of their salary plus overhead for a month. I've heard estimates of tech employees costing a company about 10k/month to keep employed on average, so that month delay just cost you a million dollars, plus whatever hit you took for marketing since all that needs to be moved around and redone, plus the cost to morale and potential burnout.

    Another unfortunate wrench in the works is that a lot of times, the barriers to work being done on time are outside of your control. Maybe you're trying to build for a console those dev kits aren't really ready yet. Maybe you're using certain tools and you need to wait for bugs to be worked out of those tools. Maybe you're working with contractors for content and they struggled to deliver on time. Maybe a global pandemic hits and productivity drops to a fraction of what it was for a short time. Maybe you lose a huge amount of time just because a particular critical technical problem can't be reproduced in a development environment in order to be solved in a timely way. Maybe you need to hire new people and their ramp up time makes them very expensive and not very useful for a while. Or, maybe all of those things happen at the same time.

    None of those are solved by killing middle management.
     
  11. fps

    fps Kit

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    Thinking about tools and going on a tangent, metal can’t really add too much new technology now without ceasing to be metal. If you like metal, I’d argue there is more than a lifetime’s worth of great metal out there to discover now as well. So technical advances will take people away from particular kinds of music towards new things, and others will be left behind complaining modern music sucks. But it’s like saying modern video games suck and only playing Super Mario Bros 3 and Streets of Rage, while suggesting any new 2D scrollers are too generic to enjoy.
     
  12. p0ke

    p0ke 7-string guitard

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    What I think sucks about modern music is the lack of emotion. Definitely not all music, but for example all the stuff that's on the radio and what the kids like to listen to, it just sounds like the artists/bands are trying as hard as possible not to stir up any emotion and therefore sound super unexcited and tired. There's even lots of metal like that, elevator music with low tuned guitars over it... It does absolutely nothing for me, no matter how technical or otherwise cool it is. It's gotta have some anger or melancholy (or even happiness) in it to interest me in any way.
     
  13. DrakkarTyrannis

    DrakkarTyrannis

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    To be fair..modern metal certainly sucks...but luckily there's a never ending supply of older stuff to check out
     
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  14. MrWulf

    MrWulf SS.org Regular

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    What exactly constitute "stirring up emotion?"

    Please enlighten me because in every era there are always fans that proclaims such and such are sterile and "lacking emotion". Black metal was born when people thought death metal was going too clean, too precise and "lacking emotion". And now apparently it is the same thing.

    Lets face it, this isnt a modern vs old school issue. It is just cyclical nature of trends and human perception.
     
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  15. thebeesknees22

    thebeesknees22 SS.org Regular

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    I'd agree with that. There's not much new stuff with a lot of angst. Everyone does the same whisper scream crap too instead of really belting it out which also makes it lose its energy.
     
  16. Metropolis

    Metropolis SS.org Regular

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    Just move on, try new things and stop gate keeping/thread.
     
  17. p0ke

    p0ke 7-string guitard

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    I'll agree to the whole cyclical-thing, sure thing, I don't like what's popular now even though lots of other people do. But I'm not really talking about production or even the actual performance, but rather the compositions themselves just feel like they're intentionally trying to be as non-offending as possible and by doing that they lack any kind of energy. It's like elevator music or hotel lobby background music with some EDM beat (or djenting guitars in the case of modern metal) over it...

    Yep, and lots of bands not even trying to be new, and making more of the good old stuff instead. I'm not worried in that sense, I'm mostly just annoyed because I'm forced to listen to the radio sometimes + the kids listen to whatever they heard at school or at some friends' place.
     
  18. TedEH

    TedEH Cromulent

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    Honestly, I don't see it. I mean, we live in a time where it's appropriate for a TV special (Netflix, but whatever - Netflix is basically TV now) to have "if you don't like our show, get fucked" in the lyrics. We're on a forum frequented by members who listen to the types of music that talk about mutilating people and raping babies and nonsense like that, and you can't find music that's offensive enough....?

    I mean, we're on the internet. If you look hard enough, you'll find something offensive.
     
  19. DrakkarTyrannis

    DrakkarTyrannis

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    You're old...that's what that means. It's okay. It happens to us all. I have no clue who these modern famous musicians are and they all sound terrible to me. Every now and then one will be kinda cool but I just don't get it...then again I don't have to get it because it's not made for me. I can at least enjoy the production and craft behind it even if I don't understand the appeal.
     
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  20. p0ke

    p0ke 7-string guitard

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    I'm not saying I can't find it, what I'm saying is what's on the radio is basically neutered. But it doesn't matter, it's true that it's indeed just not for me.
     

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